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Zero frame throw?

Discussion in 'Dojo' started by tianyuan2k2, Jun 13, 2006.

  1. Pai_Garu

    Pai_Garu Well-Known Member

    Yeah, you can still escape, but you must be super precise.
     
  2. Chanchai

    Chanchai Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the correction. Much appreciated ^_^
     
  3. Jerky

    Jerky Well-Known Member

    and physic.
     
  4. comoesa2

    comoesa2 Well-Known Member

    yes it does require some prediction....
     
  5. Zass

    Zass Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    Zass30
    I'm still confused about 0f throws. I've seen several conflicting definitions

    1) from the brady games guide
    0F throws only occur when the throw is guaranteed.


    In this definition, 0f throws are basically useless. They confer no advantage over 12f throws.

    2) VF5 wiki
    Any High or Low Throw executed when the opponent is passive will execute as a zero frame throw. This means an opponent that is either standing still or blocking, whether crouching or standing for low and high throws respectively


    This definition has two aspects.
    a) The first would mean that if the opponent is pressing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif then a 0f throw occurs. This is stated in this thread by akai, who says:
    The opponent gets a 0-frame throw if you are just standing and holding guard.

    b) The second would mean that if the opponent is standing and pressing nothing (not even /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif , then the 0f throw would occur. This is stated by strider in this thread who says:
    Or not holding guard.

    Could someone clarify which exactly is true? I'm fairly sure 1) is true. What I care about is 2) a) and 2) b). Are both correct? Is either correct? Is there a way to test this to prove it?
     
  6. Cozby

    Cozby OMG Custom Title! W00T!

    PSN:
    CozzyHendrixx
    XBL:
    Stn Cozby
    I always thought it depended on distance. Zero frame throws can be executed without guaranteed throw advantage though.
     
  7. KoD

    KoD Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    codiak
    Pretty much none of those definitions seem entirely accurate, since it's possible to waste frames and 0-frame throw someone if they are attempting to crouch from standing at small disadvantages. In that case, throw isn't "guaranteed" since they can hit you out of it; they aren't passive unless you consider all joystick movement and G button use to be passive . . .

    I'd say its probably more useful for you to find specific situations (backturned, stance cancel etc ) where you can set up a zero frame throw with your character.
     
  8. social_ruin

    social_ruin Well-Known Member

    Zero fram throws are when there is no "grab" animation prior to the throw. They can be escaped but the window is either halved or 1/3 a 12 frame throw. I think 1/3 Zero frame throws and garaunteed throws are not necesarrily related, but can overlap. Zero frame throws can also be performed during the recovery phase of a move. The most notable example of this is as follows: Ur opponent does a move, say throw. U duck. Then u stand and throw ur opponent. If u do ur throw before the recovery phase of ur opps throw u perform 12 frame throw. However, if u wait a fraction of a second longer and do ur throw during opponents 2 frame recover u do a zero frame throw and actually get a "faster" more difficult to escape throw than if u threw as soon as possible. I'm not sure the frames in the example are 100% accurate but the idea remains intact. Still, if ur opponent is anticipating a zero frame throw, they can still enter escapes, but have a much smaller window to do so. Which of course could be further reduced by lag. Hope that helps
     
  9. Tricky

    Tricky "9000; Eileen Flow Dojoer" Content Manager Eileen

    actually the time window for a zero frame throw escape and a 12f throw escape are exactly the same it's just that you have to react that much more quickly to get out of a zero frame throw.

    I still don't get how zero frame throws work or what situations need to be met for them to happen, it's explained horribly (no offense to those trying to explain it) what needs to be done is a video showing zero frame throw situations and why they're zero frame.

    The only situations I know that give you zero frame throws is when you throw your opponent during their recovery frames after the action frames of a move. Other than that no idea how you do zero frames.
     
  10. Jeneric

    Jeneric Well-Known Member

    If a move is blocked, there is a 10f window where all throws will be 12f grab throws (for BOTH characters

    If a move hits, there is a 10f window where all throws will be 12f grab throws (for BOTH characters

    If you've just succesfully evaded, there's a 10f window where all throws will be 12f grab throws (for BOTH characters as of version C)

    If a throw whiffs, it will have a 12f grab animation.

    In all other situations, throws are 0 frames.

    Feel free to correct if I'm wrong or missed something.
     
  11. Tricky

    Tricky "9000; Eileen Flow Dojoer" Content Manager Eileen

    Sorry for asking the obvious but what are those other situations? . . . I'm guessing the list of when you can zero frame throw is less than when you can't
     
  12. Jeneric

    Jeneric Well-Known Member

    Think of it like this: Zero frame throw is the default. Every throw is a zero frame throw. Except for those situations listed above where they are 12f throws.
     
  13. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    The word "only" makes this statement incorrect.

    "0F throws occur when the throw is guaranteed" is a correct statement, but it is only one case where 0f throws occur.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In this definition, 0f throws are basically useless. They confer no advantage over 12f throws.</div></div>
    Totally agree with you. My guess is that the only reason they're pointed out is due to the fact that you won't see the startup (grabbing) animation in this situation. If people were able to throw escape on reaction to seeing this startup animation, then it's now much harder.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2) VF5 wiki
    Any High or Low Throw executed when the opponent is passive will execute as a zero frame throw. This means an opponent that is either standing still or blocking, whether crouching or standing for low and high throws respectively


    This definition has two aspects.
    a) The first would mean that if the opponent is pressing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif then a 0f throw occurs. This is stated in this thread by akai, who says:
    The opponent gets a 0-frame throw if you are just standing and holding guard.

    b) The second would mean that if the opponent is standing and pressing nothing (not even /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif , then the 0f throw would occur. This is stated by strider in this thread who says:
    Or not holding guard.

    Could someone clarify which exactly is true? I'm fairly sure 1) is true. What I care about is 2) a) and 2) b). Are both correct? Is either correct? Is there a way to test this to prove it? </div></div>
    Both 2-a and 2-b are correct. The holding guard thing is probably confusing you, and pretty much has nothing to do with 0f throws, so just ignore that. The key to both 2-a and 2-b is the fact that the opponent is idle and in a throwable condition (i.e. not attacking, not in guard/hit stun, not airborne, etc)

    BTW, Cozby, distance has absolutely nothing to do with throws being 0f or not. Distance can only factor into the throw's success (is it within range or not?), and not the type of throw that results (0f or 12f).
     
  14. Cozby

    Cozby OMG Custom Title! W00T!

    PSN:
    CozzyHendrixx
    XBL:
    Stn Cozby
    ah ok it makes much more sense now
     
  15. Ladon

    Ladon Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    Ladon---
    You'll also get a 12-frame throw if you buffer in a throw from an OM.

    Besides that, i'd say Jeneric's explanation is on the money.
     
  16. KoD

    KoD Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    codiak
    Jeneric's zen definition ("this is what 0 frame throw is not") is a much better way of thinking about it than "opponent is idle" or whatever.

    I'm pretty sure backturned is an additional exception to the 10 frame safety window after hit / guard stun. You might be able to explain stance cancel ~ 0f as always wasting more than 10 frames anyway; i'm pretty sure this is the case for Lei, but I don't care to test the others' stances right now. I think turning forward from backturned wastes less than 10 frames, though, because after stuff like lau p4p you can fuzzy guard to duck a throw and block an elbow, which you couldn't if turning wasted 10 frames.
    To test this, I programmed jacky 44p (wait exactly until recovery ends) tap 2g for 2 frames, 2 empty frames, tap p+g for 2 frames. The result after guarding 44p is a throw with no grab animation, or that doesn't clash against jeff's slow-ass 6K+G or fully charged 1K+G ( both of those moves will normally clash even if jeff is at small ADVANTAGE ). If 44p MC's, you cannot duck the throw with 2g even though ostensibly the move is only +5 on MC.
    If there's an alternative explanation for this, i'm all ears.

    To continue being a punk-ass:

    "Distance has nothing to do with throws being 0 frame or not" - Distance DOES affect throw animation (how related this is to whether a throw is 0f is another issue). You will get a grab animation on a throw that connects from max distance against an opponent that is doing nothing (no controller input, standing steady state). You will not get a grab animation if you are right next to an opponent in the same state. It's a very visible and audible difference.

    "0F throws occur when the throw is guaranteed" - If an opponent throws at +12 or more advantage from guarding a move (guaranteed throw attempt), it will have grab animation, even if you're right up next to them.

    "hit, guard stun, etc is not a throwable condition" - you can definitely throw people out of hit stun. Jeff 6k+g and 1p+k, you can mash a guaranteed throw attempt even on MC without worrying about a whiff like you would with a stagger. I'm not sure there ARE any other attacks in vf5 that leave you at more than +12 and inside throw range on hit. The statement regarding guard stun may be correct, but afaik the only move that's even a candidate is pai's meishou p, which leaves her in stance. Startup and hit seem like the only parts of a move that you're certain not to get a 0f throw.
     
  17. Zass

    Zass Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    Zass30
    That's a really good explanation KoD and Jeneric. Thanks!

    KoD, how did you program Jacky? is this something you can do on xbox360? I'm having trouble with some things, like low throwing lion after blocking his low kicks, and I want to practice against a programmed AI that just does that + evade.
     
  18. KoD

    KoD Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    codiak
    device I built. There may be an easier but more expensive way to do it with a mayflash programmable ps2 device and one of those converters.

    http://virtuafighter.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/193087#Post193087

    otherwise you'll have to hope R comes to console with a dojo mode that includes features present by default in . . . oh, y'know, any fighting game released THIS CENTURY. grrr
     
  19. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    KoD, it's strange that the early definitions/translations of 0f throws mentioned that guaranteed throws will be 0f, but you say this is not the case.

    But what if 0f throws can also have the startup animation too? It might explain the guaranteed case, as well as the throwing from long range example you mentioned?

    The real test for 0f is to see if you can do anything to prevent the throw without throw escaping (e.g. low punch) after the throw has started. We know you can't when the throw is guaranteed (obviously), but what about at long range?

    Could you test this out KoD? BTW, there was nothing punk nor ass in your reply - I stand corrected!
     
  20. Manjimaru

    Manjimaru Grumpy old man

    PSN:
    manjimaruFI
    XBL:
    freedfrmtheReal
    I agree on this. Im pretty damn sure you can 0f throw an opponent that has entered the recovery part of their move, for example ducking under a high attack and then 0f throwing them out of their recovery. I have this on tape from casual matches. For example I ducked under a punch on occasion and 0f threw opponent /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
     

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