Yomi Innate or Nurtured?

FC= full circle . . . glossary (I'm pretty sure you're joking, least I hope)

 

what I mean is that that tutorial, the text called nitaku, forced choice.

 

"2-choice"

Wow. 2 extra bytes compared to "nitaku". Generalizes to "3-choice".

and i think it's pretty clear what FC means:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><Plague-CA> FC = full cunt
<Plague-CA> Forty-nine Chrysler?
<KoD> from crouching force crouch full circular fake crap
<Plague-CA> Frozen Chinchilla
<B_Feck> fudge candle
<B_Feck> furry cock
<Plague-CA> Fish Chop!
<GrieverVF> Freakin' Counter
<Fulan> FC is fullcircular
<sudden_wk> from crouch
<akuma001> or fuckyo couch
</div></div>

I think the last one is correct.

 

There is "reading" your opponents moves- but there is also getting into the "mind" of your opponent. Two different things in my opinion.
I think the later is very easy to see in DOA. In DOA, countering is extremely easy. It comes down to you knowing what your opponent is going to do, not really your technical skill in inputting commands.
Anyway there have been times where i've knocked a player down and I just know that they are going to get up with a low sweep. I counter it. The player then does high wake up attack. I counter it. Then the player is thinking "I'll do another high because he will go low now. I counter the high. The player then does a mid wake up- I counter it. KO!! Situations like this happen to me all the time- where there is no rational explanation for me predecting what the opponent will do other than me being in the "mind" of my opponent.
Stuff like that happens in VF, but is alot more dificult to explain.

 

However, I dont see 2-choice utlized much here in VFDC.. I wonder if we can do something to that.

ps. In finnish I could translate that as "kaksoisvaihtoehto" (vaihtoehto = option) plus its easy to misunderstand..

 

Damn my vision may actually be realized, people not using friggin japanese words
to describe everything. All the fighting game fans I have that aren't on this forum
really, really hate that shit about this place.

 

Guess I'll chime in. I used to hate the word "yomi" and lot of the other vocab, just like Myke does... but then I just learned what it all meant. Part of it may be that I actually know some japanese, so it more easily lost that mystical edge. But, to echo KoD, we need a lot words, and some of them just don't have clear english counterparts. It seems as good (or possibly better), to just do a better job of clearly defining these terms, than to add even more words onto the list.

Honestly, I thought Sirlin's original use of the word so many years ago was quite clear. It was just a way of defining game elements that are responses to your opponent's actions. With the other side of the coin being things like max damage combos... still part of the game, but not yomi because interaction is lacking. I think it's quite simple was Sirlin was saying in that comment you quoted Myke... he wanted a game with the complex interaction of attack/throw/low throw/fuzzy/ETEG and so on, without the need to practice DPoD 50 times a day, like Oioron does, before you can reasonably expect to use it in a match.

Despite some of the earlier comments, I honestly really enjoy these types of discussions. It's nice to see people talking about yomi at all. I still hang out with lots of players of ST and other games, and in general it's really depressing trying to discuss other fighting games. People can come ask questions on here and other places about complex mechanics of VF, and usually someone *actually knows the answer*, how profound. Most of my attempts to try and pick up some ST knowledge, so I can play some other games results in me asking what appears to be a very simple question, and receiving the answer: "Oh, that's just random, noone knows why it works, and sometimes it won't work"

 

Sirlin prefers to mash on low strong all day. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif jk

ST in general is hella random. There is quite a bit of stuff that can't be explained fully.

 

If you are at the point where you can anticipate your opponent's next move, or if you sense what's coming next, it won't help you
if you don't have the skills to do anything about it /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cry.gif

Perhaps we have:

Character-facing-Yomi
Player-facing-Yomi


With Character-facing-Yomi: the anticipation deals with the sensing what's coming next out of the available options that a particular character in VF has in some situation. Of course this requires mastery of the characters.

Player-facing-Yomi: the anticipation follows from learning the patterns/trends of your opponent no matter which character he/she uses. You sense what your opponent is about to do next because you are able to read his/her mind.

Obviously those that are 'good at Yomi' have both Player-facing-Yomi and Character-facing-Yomi.

 

character yomi? is simply character knowledge, theres no reading
of the character, just knowledge of the character. The only
reading your going to do of a character is of it's movelist.

Only reading that counts is how you read the player. Kage isn't
going to do an elbow because he's kage. He's going to do an elbow
because the player likes to elbow.

 

crazy thread /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

i think that yomi is just "thinking outside of the box".

you can do this once you've learnt the box. if your knowlege is limited, then inverting your knowlege is limited-

kindda like when nintendo can make original games with mario, and sega cant with sonic ¬ (ooooH!!)

 

Of course you are correct(Mostly). Character-Yomi (apart from characters as they are used by particular players) in part boils down to knowledge of character. But it also boils down to what is most likely for a given character in a given situation.

Perhaps you'll disagree, but here's what I mean, lets say we are
looking 50 Akiras, they are all played by 50 different (but accomplished) human players. I'm trying to make the point (perhaps poorly make the point) that there are certain 'averages'[/size] or 'likelihoods'[/size] or (patterns/trends)[/size] that will surface by most of those Akiras in some given situation.

The reason why certain moves show up on the average or are more likely on the average in certain situations is because those moves 'feel' more natural to players, are more practical on the average, or the move sequences have become kind-a-cliches for certain characters. So that when you get say
50 Akiras in some situation we can use Character-Yomi to guess
what an Akira player (on the average will do[/size]). I'm considering it character-yomi because that same group of 50 players using Kage might choose some kind of offense for Kage whereas a some kind of defense might be more natural for Akira.

Yes I agree, Yomi is against individual players, but once you have certain patterns/trends that start to show up at the character level (regardless of player)[/size] then we have Character-Yomi.

The patterns/trends per character might be a result of admiration. For example I might like Heruru's Lei Fei
so I try (and probably fail) to do what he does in certain situations. I might admire chibita's Lion and try to imitate
(and probably fail) his moves in a certain situation.

The patterns/trends per character might be a result of what sequences are physically easier to pull off than other legtimate sequences in some given situation. If after watching 50,60 Goh's play I might be able to rely on Character-Yomi when facing a player that is using Goh and I've never played that player B4.
That is, I base my Yomi how Goh players (play in general[/size]) not
on a particular player.


Yes it is a matter of character knowledge. But its also a matter of how that character is used on the average by most accomplished
fighters. That's where Character-Yomi comes in.

On the other hand if we are talking about player-facing-yomi then
it may not matter what character your opponent is throwing at you, you can sense what he/she is going to do next because you're in their head. It wouldn't matter if they're using Pai, Jeffrey, etc. You know what's coming because you're in their head. This is what I mean by player-facing-yomi.

So to answer the original question. Yomi (character or player)
is Nurtured. It can only come with a great deal of experience with characters, and players. Now, how sophisticated/clever/insightful your response is as a result of your Yomi is innate. Certain levels of speed, improvisation, hand/eye coordination cannot be learned or nurtured.

 

I'll have to disagree, that's just character knowledge. What a
character can do and advantages and disadvantages is simply
character knowledge. The anticipation of what the player will do
is where the reading comes in.

Even when you generalize what players do with a specific
character to your response you are still reading the player
by his or her skill level in relation to yours. I know that
scrub akiras may 66p+k,p > 2P > Throw. That's not character
knowledge that my experience reading scrub Akira players
general tendencies. There are many tendencies players have
which are referred to as styles. Reading a players style IS
reading the player.

You develop your reading skills over time but it's all based
on what PLAYERS you've faced. I'll never know a character will
do anything. I know a type of player will do something and that
same player may change this during the course of the match.

Character Yomi as a term is unnecessary.
All reading is, is predicting someones tendencies whether it
be the bigger picture or the small details. It's the same thing.

 

may i just add somewhere that yomi expands bigger than just reading your opponent.

on a more practical level, yomi relies apon studying your own character rather than your opponent's, this will flip the situation and read your opponent better than he/she is actually reading you. here's what i mean¬

wolf vs sarah.

-wolf does a standing knee, (f+k) and gets blocked.
-wolf is at high disadvantage, but not counterable.
-sarah goes for a high P, wolf does an instant low lariat.
-wolf wins.

-wolf does a standing knee, (f+k) and gets blocked.
-wolf is at high disadvantage, but not counterable.
-sarah goes for a launch to win MC.
-wolf does mid kick reversal.

-wolf does db+k and gets NH.
-wolf is at disadvantage.
-sarah goes for mid.
-wolf does mid kick reversal.

-wolf does db+k and gets NH.
-wolf is at disadvantage.
-sarah goes for a delay attack, or a delay-throw.
-wolf does P,K.


you may say that knowing sarah's mid game is what made wolf able to yomi the majority of the time, however it was exploring his individual options as a character and utilizing his strengths and weaknesses in his own conditioned situation.

in this case "forcing yomi" or "conditioning the opponent" making them switch options fast and frantically. which is a very strong addition to learn and can be spread across a wide variety of opponents.

 

So you're saying that instead of Character-Yomi I'm just using my character knowledge of generalized skill sets and skill levels of 'types' of players[/size] as it pertains to how those types of players[/size] use a specific character?

And that the phrase 'Character Yomi' is not really relevant.


Fair enough.. I see your point. And maybe I should withdraw the
phrase, but first I have a couple of questions that I'll ask in
the context of a hypothetical situation:

Let say:

You find yourself in the winner's bracket of a pretty high level tournament (All scrub , noobs, casual players, and cats like me have been eliminated).

You are matched with some Lei Fei player from say West Africa.
You know nothing about the player, never played him B4. You only know that he has made it this far in the tournament.

The match starts and on the very first action of the first round you sensed exactly which of Lei Fei's moves your opponent was going to try and with assassin's precision you responded successfully.

Are you saying its your knowledge of Lei Fei's movelist that allowed you to guess which of Lei Fei's moves would be used
as an opening at this skill level?

Are you saying that in your experience all cat's at this skill level that use Lei Fei tend to use the same opening, so that your Yomi was really relying on particular players from your past?

Or are you saying that even though you have nevered played this Chap B4 there was something about the gleam in his eye, and the twitch in his hand, and the expression on his face that allowed you to sense which of Lei Fei's moves he was going to open with?


My friend,

When a particular character style (choice of moves in a given situation[/size]) has become so dominant and so pervasive that it is no longer indicative of a particular player 's use of the character, but rather it is indicative of a whole class of players that use that character, then that style, that approach, that method transcends any one player. It becomes a style or method that is associated with the particular character not with a particular player!

You can literally train and prepare yourself for that particular fighting style. Your Yomi works in the tournament because of your experience with that style. You don't even care who the player is that's using it.(I know this sounds like a paradox) You know what they're going to do B4 they know what there going to do because you've played against that style a thousand times B4. This is not reading your opponent, This is reading a style of play with a particular character that your opponent is attempting to pull off on you. The proof of this is when your opponent switches characters their entire approach to the game changes. This is in contrast to the player who has reached a certain level of skill and regardless of which character they are using they will pull eteg, fuzzy guard, back dash, etc under the certain stituations.

If you want to say that taking the average initiate and response
moves of a set of high level Akira players is not Character Yomi
but a matter of reading in a generic way what a high level player
that is using Akira will likely do next in some given situation, then you actually agree with me. The test is would this player
doing something radically different if instead of Akira he/she was using Wolf.

The pattern/trend (that some average of high level players[/size]) is most likely to use for a specific character in a given situation will allow you to use Yomi. You are saying that your Yomi is in response to the level of player[/size] not to the character. I am saying that
there is something about the nature of the character that causes
large numbers of high level players to use it with similar patterns/trends. So that its not just a matter of knowing the
character's movelists, but which choices tend to be affective
for that character once you've passed a certain level of play.


This is especially the case when the style of play is only supported by the particular character. For instance there are some reversal game styles that AOI, and perhaps GOH could pull off that most of the other characters (e.g. Lei Fei, Jeffrey,Jacky etc) simply can't do. In this case the game play would be associated with the character not the player. Even if you look at it as simply a matter of knowing the movelists for AOI or GOH that still does not account for knowing which moves are most likely or sensing which moves[/size] are about to come your way. This requires Yomi and if the only information you have at a tournament about your opponent is the fact that he is in the winner circle with you then you will rely on sensing, guessing, reading based on your knowledge of the Character, or Character's style. This my friend is Character Yomi (anticipating the character's next move rather than anticipating the player's next move)

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

or

Sarah does mid.
Wolf guards.
Sarah takes it in the ass for free.

 

I still say reading an opponent is nothing but:

He did this last time so he probably thinks I'll do this, so I'll
do that but he probably thinks I'll do that because he did this so I'll do that.

It's still reading your opponent.

 

Sorry no offense but I don't have the stamina to read all that.
I'm sure you made some good points though. (Makes note on who NOT
to start a debate with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif )

 

nah, i think you misunderstood alittle about those scenarios¬

they arent actually reading the opponent at all, they are reading situations.

these situations are ones that the wolf player already knows he's in or made himself, because he knows his character well, regardless of the opponent - key words here i'll rule out

-wolf does a standing knee, (f+k) and gets blocked.
-wolf is at high disadvantage, but not counterable.
-sarah goes for a high P, wolf does an instant low lariat.
-wolf wins.

(standard high crush move, because wolf knows that the frames are tight. and that a lariat would beat out both a throw and a high P attempt from a sarah thinking she's got a garanteed hit. sarah's instantly forced to wake up!.)


-wolf does a standing knee, (f+k) and gets blocked.
-wolf is at high disadvantage, but not counterable.
-sarah goes for a launch to win MC.
-wolf does mid kick reversal.

if an elbow type character, he'll do R.A.W, a very standard reversal game is played at disadvantage, yet here again, he's playing on he fact that his disadvantage isnt garanteed by a few scapes instead of going direct turtle with ETE, he switches the offense.

-wolf does db+k and gets NH.
-wolf is at disadvantage.
-sarah goes for mid.
-wolf does mid kick reversal.

he treated the situation like any disadvantage, however he has the upper hand here as the opponent cant instant high throw without yomi, only MID or DELAY

-wolf does db+k and gets NH.
-wolf is at disadvantage.
-sarah goes for a delay attack, or a delay-throw.
-wolf does P,K.

wolf uses the fact that he's in a safer position than standing and bank on the opponent's chance to delay

the real point im trying to make here is that you should at any cost and any means know your character better than your opponent knows your character. the reason being is that when they arent specially trained for your frames and your situations, you have already gained the upper hand and force better pressure with both yomi and non-yomi scenarios. if you stand there all day reading every single opponent, then your own game is already weak, and that's not strong. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">or

Sarah does mid.
Wolf guards.
Sarah takes it in the ass for free.</div></div>

that would switch the scenario back to 50/50. meaning sarah could also claim her ass back and take wolf's too¬

wolf made a "yomi" choice to pressure sarah's mid game ¬ /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif