Wtf with all that abare madness on Xbl?

this topic is gonna take over the ggs thread!!

 

How would 8 frame throws reduce abare? Since they'd probably remove clash if they did that.

Plus they've adjusted frame advantages in VF5 (due to 12f throws) so it's actually easier counterhit attacks when you have the advantage. Abare was in many ways more effective in VF4 then VF5.

And fuzzy guard is NOT being defensive? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif


Personally though, I'd like to see clash removed and throws adjusted to maybe 10 frames in execution.

 

My point exactly. How would 8f throws "make people hold G for more than half a sec" or however it was said before.

In VF4 we had 8f throws and people were, even in high levels, going through them with the biggest launches they had if they anticipated a throw. That wasn't abare?

 

I'm going to be biased and say I don't like 0f throws because that's what beats me up the most. I can't see their damn hands. haha.

The way I see it is that, with the clash, 0f, and 12f throw deal: there are a ton of very rewarding moves that are not -12 and up guaranteed throw punishable, so you can be less careful about your move selection cause you're not at a point of guaranteed counter where you have to defend. Makes things safer over all because, since a throw isn't guaranteed they don't have to try and escape some and thus possibly leave themselves open for someone to be greedy.

0f throws, allow you to attack with throws, and since you can't even see the start up you're likely to strike to avoid it. It's very strong. 0f throws rip me to shreds ALL day. It's something I can't even see coming no matter what, it just happens.

Having throws clash actually allows people to keep attacking with throws, probably even at disadv to someone delaying moves to combat reversals/sabakis/evades etc. so those people delaying moves on their adv can probably get 0f thrown.

There's also these crazy set ups with moves that go extra low and go under shit and set up 0f throws. Like Goh's 2P reversal he go mad low down the moment you actually see that move, and begin your strike, you're getting thrown.

Anyway I'm probably totally wrong on most of this, so take it with a grain of salt.

 

I've always agreed with the idea that people should be made to think, and am for the return of forced two choice guessing (in smaller advantages). It's way too accessible for people to get away with murder in VF5. This isn't a complaint (I'm a big boy and I can deal), but a personal opinion on this matter. Having to be mindful of the 5 possible ways my opponent can still beat me after landing PK isn't my cup of tea.

However... these changes were intentional. Sega wants you to be more aggressive. I feel it's evident in the gameplay changes as well as visual, audio, etc. Take for instance how they sped up most bgms in VF5R - its conducive to a faster pace of fighting.

I have mixed feelings about the progression of VF. I may not be a fan of the current state of the game, but I believe this was the only course for Sega to take in order to keep their game from going stale.

 

Nice post, Jerky.
Wow, this thread went on this long and I haven't chimed in? I'm slipping XD
This is how I feel about "abare madness":
I use to get pissed about it but then I realized that not only do I do it sometimes but if you watch some of the top players from Japan play, even they do it too sometimes.
All you have to do is watch the exhibition matches on the disk and you will see it happen quite a few times during a match.

With that said, I use to get pissed at people being abare, specially when I wanted to throw them. I couldn't get a throw in for the life of me but guess what?
THEY'RE not wrong for attacking when I wanted to throw.
I'M wrong for not taking advantage of my +frames and beating out their attack.

I think Yosuke has proved to us all that you can get on XBL and win most of the time against ANY style of play.
Yes, we are not all Yosuke but my point is: it's just a style of play that if you're a good player, you can pick apart.
My 2 worthless pennies.

 

Thought it was pretty obvious that very good players handle random XBL abare player easily, as well that casual abare is a good thing (ie when you sense that throw coming from the Tony's exemple, or when you're looking for a CH and you know the opponent gonna try a slow launcher or something).
I was just talking about players that replaces stictly all their defense by offense since there are a lot around there.

Played some Lei Fei dude this afternoon, he wasn't bad and worked a bit on the char and had some setup (not random mashing, he had nice flowcharts) but he never was on defense. Never. When he techrolled I just 66KK him (with Akira) it worked every single time and several times in a row. He could be decent with some defense, he could even beat my scrub's ass, but ... No, he prefered eating ch SDE all the time so he got crushed.

The sad part isn't the fact that he lost, it's the fact that he did not learnt anything in all those games we had. I could'nt setup anything, trick him nor get him in standing guard so I spammed elbows, 66p+k,p to keep the advantage and I had'nt any fun since I played like a bot without the need of think.

The sadest part is that I must play worse than usually to beat him.

There's another german Shun player, SCHAKAL81 that acts the same, but this time he crushes me easily haha. He don't even watch his opponent and just go in weird Shun strings till K'O. Once again, when I take him rounds I must play like a retard to get him... But my lack of Shun's knowledge gives him the victory most of the time. At least in those games I learn how to deal with Shun.

Anyway, in my opinion it's pretty pointless to play guys where you have to actually play worse than usual in order to win ...

 

I still don't see it. If anything, VF5 favors aggressiveness LESS then VF4 and has made it way too easy IMO to play defensive with less risk. They've also increased frame advantage all around, so if someone attacks out of disadvantage you generally have MORE +'s to use to beat out his attack then in Evo. I really see little difference when it comes to stopping mashers in VF5 compared to Evo, it's the ones that really know their move properties that can fuck you up royally though (*looks at Eileen and shakes head*)

Then again, this IS in the Xbox Live forum and I've thankfully almost completely forgotten the abomination that is Virtua Fighter 5 Online (not to be confused with the game Virtua Fighter 5).

 

I guess it's like the flip side of a coin. Eileen is craziness.

I read that it's supposed to be easier to fuzzy in 5 than it was in 4 because the amount of active frames in throws, too, is this true?

 

It's definitely much easier, frame window is of course longer (-1 to -6 in VF5, compared to -1 to -2 in Evo), but timing is also easier since the trick in Evo was to duck under the execution phase of thethrow and in VF5 the trick is to not stand up in the throw, but "thankfully" characters will only stand up immediately if a mid attack comes, so the timing is loose.

 

Well nevermind then. Games where you have no fun,where you must play like a retard and where you didnt learnt anything (neither does your opponent)are juste a timesink <u>for me</u>. You may appreciate them, tho. As we say in french "Chacun ses gouts" , each to hiw own.

I don't know why you're talking about VF4 evo and such, I never played that I'm a beginner VF player (started with VF5) and I learnt mostly online. I respect your experience and your point of view but I don't see what's your point in saying that VF5 favors aggressiveness less than VF4.

V5 online has actually huge flaws as in your statement, but don't forget it bringed some positive things for vf: new dedicated players in the community -I'm one of them, I'd never stayed so long without an online mode since there's no VF offline in France- and it keeps in business some other who would've stop the game.

 

This is a problem with the PLAYER, not the game. The players you mentioned would've played this way in any game. Learn to beat them and move on.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know why you're talking about VF4 evo and such, I never played that I'm a beginner VF player (started with VF5) and I learnt mostly online. I respect your experience and your point of view but I don't see what's your point in saying that VF5 favors aggressiveness less than VF4.</div></div>Because other people brought it up and it IS a good starting point to evaluate from.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">online has actually huge flaws as in your statement, but don't forget it bringed some positive things for vf: new dedicated players in the community -I'm one of them, I'd never stayed so long without an online mode since there's no VF offline in France- and it keeps in business some other who would've stop the game. </div></div>I don't see how these two things go together. If people don't move on to offline from online there was no point to it all from the start. Online might as you say be good for beginners, but to truely learn the game you need to play VF5.

 

Well... Yes?
Did I blamed the game? If so, point me the post where I did that
My topic was about the abare hype on Xbl. If my post wasn't clear enough I'm sorry for that, blame my crappy english /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif
That's why I don't really see your point from the beginning. I was talking about players attitude, you talk of the game system...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't see how these two things go together. If people don't move on to offline from online there was no point to it all from the start. Online might as you say be good for beginners, but to truely learn the game you need to play VF5. </div></div>
But man I'd like to play offline but I can't. No events, absolutely no VF hype here, even in multi-fighters tourneys VF5 isn't here. VF has always been a fail in France cause 99% ppl play SC & Tekken.

But from what I've seen since I'm on VFDC (except in France so) there are a bunch of new people enjoying VF & Live, so it's a bit excessive to say that xbl is some kind of ancient evil to eradicate. Those new players may have attend offline events in US or in other european countries.

Btw you can meet many good western players on xbl plus some good to top asian players (Yosuke, woni0639 - korean player who attended WCG last year- etc..) and even if lags negates gameplay there are still plenty to learn with them.

 

That's the problem with brad players...they are always slipping /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

I understand what you're saying, but the flip side is that if they returned to 8 frame throws with no other adjustments, about 10% more of the movelist (and arguably a very important 10%) would be throw punishable. abare would no longer work there, except to stop delay attack.

 

Thank you for seeing it from the right perspective. There are tons of moves people throw out there that leave them at -8 --> -10, but still they continue to abare. Shun, Brad are 2 I can think of right off the bat this early in the morning.

Jeneric, the majority of people agree that Shun is highly annoying and if not broken at sometimes. Do you really think that changing throws back to 8 frames won't put an end to some of this BS?

 

Hokuto

I think you will just get better at dealing with abare opponents the more experienced you will get.

I used to have troubles with Shakal81 or wathever he's called, but now I can hold my own.

About the offline-online argument: Every opponent is different, I think you need to play an opponent a lot in order to understand what wouldn't work offline but that works online. But if you never play offline, you will never have to adjust, so no point to even worry.

 

Well... I'm a member of the Inverse Learning Curve Club, don't forget that pal !

The fact is that I know SCHAKAL is not very good nor skilled, and I get more wins against far better Shun's ..I win more Kingheim's Shun (one of the best fr player, approximatively kingofvf4's level) than SHCAKAL81's. Kingheim has outstanding TE & fuzzy skills, good flowcharts and play safier ... I guess if he spammed out random strings like SCHAKAL he'd get better overall results /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

 

Shun had like NO throw counterable moves he actually needed to use in Evo so I don't know if it would make that much of a difference. If they changed throws to 8f they'd probably also adjust frame advantages as well.

I agree Shun is annoying as fuck, but not broken (he wasn't even in highest tier block in Ver C tierlists if I remember correctly).

Personally I prefer nitaku situations to TC situations since it simply is a better and more interesting guessing game.

 

Obviously people have their preferences, but its not "simply" better.

Vf4 throw-counterable situations there's still a guessing game - if you take your throw attempt, and they have good eteg skills, you're in real nitaku disadvantage. That means throw-counterable situations still involve considerations of (delay)attack, (attack|evade)throw escape, etc. Think of it this way: if you like nitaku better, you should like VF4 style throw counterable, because it leads to more nitaku situations.

Vf5 they get jack shit for a successful throw escape, and anything throw counterable is guaranteed pk counterable anyway, so of course guaranteed throw situations are boring.