Wtf with all that abare madness on Xbl?

You're right. Kage doesn't have anything like that. He doesn't really have a defensive sabaki outside of the Juumonji stance. 4K's sabaki kicks in very late (on the 15th frame) so it's not a viable option in negative situations.

 

I'd like to emphasize that there is no mention of abare neither in my original post , nor in Slide's. I just agrees with him that yes, some characters have different defensive options than others!! Unfortunately i made a list without elaborating explaining the criteria used to compile it, taking my point of view for granted. Allow me to apologize and elaborate:

<u>Shun:</u> low kick stops low punches, highs & most mids. Mulekick stuffs lows highs and some mids. He also has more evasive moves than i care to count, various rolls and a jumping evade p+k that beats delayed throws. Jumping attack that beats low punches for sideturns. Even more stuff, i really don't think anybody's debating this.

<u>Lei Fei: </u>once he lands a hit he can usually keep attacking without getting himself disadvantaged on block due to moves with evasion from his various stances. He's also the only character with a 2-part evade p+k that leaves him with the initiative on block. MDP sabaki or Doku auto-inashi means he can deals with elbows. Jumping attacks that beat low punches for knockdown. Forward roll. Again i don't think anybody will debate this.

<u>Kage: </u>as i' tried to explain above, if he doesn't want to block he doesn't have to. He can roll away, jump away (thanks oioron) somersault away. No need to abare. But if he'd like to he could press the attack with f,f+pkg which will beat highs, lows & most mids, use his df+p which will beat highs & more if done after a pushback move or just somersault. He laso has a dragonpunch, don't know how that works, seems to have pretty funky hitboxes too.

<u>Aoi:</u> She can tenchi 2/3 of a character's moves. As an added bonus she can reverse everything and sabaki some stuff. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif jumps over lows. If she doesn't qualify as "not having to press the g-button if you don't want to" i don't know what does.

<u>Lion: </u> /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif stops everything EXCEPT far reaching mids. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif beats highs. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif beats low punches for a knockdown. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif slides. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif avoids highs & short range mids & also negates sideturned situations (try it). /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif jumping circular reverse nitaku floater. Even more shenanigans. I play Lion.

<u>Eileen:</u> hopping shoulder beats practivally everything. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif goes under mids. Sweep goes under some mids too. Tons of jumping attacks to beat low punch. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif retreat move. Absurd hitboxes in general.

<u>Akira:</u> this one apparently causes an uproar. His shoulder ram is 16f and beats low punches, highs & some mids. His fast mids (including his elbow) have tech-crouch properties, beatig highs & crushing slower mids. He has 2 sabaki that stuff both high, mid & low punches. And he can reverse mids that could potentially beat shoulder ram or his other fastmids - except a HANDFUL of exceptions. It's 3-choice for him up to guaranteed punishment, guard being a fourth and thus not necessary option.

<u>Pai:</u> Somersaults. Bokutai. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. Even easier reversals. If she wants to keep pressuring instead of retreating there's always 10f punch, 14f low & 14 hopkick. She too has a 3-choice up to guaranteed punishment.

Generally speaking somersaults act like a shoryuken in this game, they seem to stuff attacks from disadvantage. However - shoryukens being punishable - a character needs to have an assitional arsenal of highly evasive in order to eschew the use of the guard button. That's why <u>Jacky, Sarah & Lau</u> don't make the list. Sure they have a couple of jumping or evasive moves but they are either punishable or slow.

Concerning <u>El Blaze</u>, i don't know, he has his rolls and his /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif retreating sabaki thing but i have yet to run into somebod who could lock me down without using the guard button.

<u>Goh</u> has a magic shoulder ram like akira but lacks the fast mids and reversals. Having to choose the right sabaki each time is not the same thing as having to press 1 reversal to deal with every mid minus SOME exceptions. Same goes for DS <u>vanessa</u>'s sabakis, minus the magic shoulder ram. OS vanessa is minus the sabakis too.

I don't think i have to explain how it's quite improbable for <u>wolf and jeffry</u> to go about ignoring the guard button. Finally <u>Brad</u> is straight up screwed in the magic attack department /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

So yeah, i made a list of characters who can win games without having to resort to using the guard button. Some of these characters have evasive moves that put them out of harms way. Others can follow the old adage "offence is the best defence". It's not a list about characters that are most suited to abare (if it were, i'd probably put brad it!). It's my fault for posting it in this thread, i wanted to reply to slide and i didn't give it much thought.

It should not be interpreted as being about tiers either. I personally don't believe in VF having tiers. I'd like to refer you to a previous post of mine:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Metagame Characters: Shun, Lei Fei, Kage, Aoi, Lion, Eileen, Vanessa, Jacky
Metagame-Free Characters: Jeffry, Wolf, El Blaze, Akira, Pai, Sarah, Brad, Lau, Goh</div></div>

Please note the differences between the two lists. Vanessa, my main, is up there with the characters possessing a stronger metagame. It just happens to be a defensive-based metagame, same as Jacky's. Akira is "legit", in other words metagame-free. That doesn't mean he can't be played in a pitbul/rushdown style which doesn't involve guarding /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Hope i managed to convey my thoughts better this time, thank you for taking the time to read this long post and please feel free to correct me if you still find blatant errors with my reasoning /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif

 

I don't think this is a viable option unless it is meant to hit the wall afterwards or ring out. If done outside of it's specific uses, it doesn't bode well for Kage. As I mentioned before, after the opponent gets hit by ffP+K+G, they can safely TR/QR and will be able to combo Kage for free. The damage that Kage inflicts is not warranted for the risk of being comboed. OM K towards Kage's back is guaranteed and will crumple him for a chunk of damage. Most combo starters will work as well.

It's too risky as a pressure move imo. If I'm playing against a Kage, i would actually love them to do this move wantonly, since I would be able to take more damage than they will.

 

erdraug, I don't quite agree with your post. I'll point out a couple quick things though:

Lion's 2_6P upper cut, will beat 6P's at -5(though I think it might be stance specific). So he can have his 2P guarded and go for while rise uppercut.

I think quite bit of characters uppercuts can do this, I think Kage's has some slipperiness to it too. I don't know, I didn't use that move that much.

Jeffry has this double armed hammer move, I don't know the command but he swing mad low and avoid alot of mids, avoids highs and makes 2P whiff. Plus you can hitcheck that thing for like 5 mins(lol). So you could backdash and do that hammer move and takes care of made shit. Plus it's double limbed.

Oh yeha, and finally its' worth characters like Jeffry and Wolf to attack alot cause their reward is off the charts and alot of combos don't work on them too they dont take as much damage depending, I think?

 

Lion's upper cut can get under 6P in Open Stance.

I don't think Kage's 2_3P has any special ducking properties...unless it's a level of ninjutsu that i've yet to discover, hehe.

 

What's "metagame" about Jacky?

 

I love you.

 

Amen!

I'd do the Aussie! Thank you for such a beautiful post!

 

I am a whiner. I never win against anyone. Do you have a problem with that? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

I think we were not speaking about casual "intentional" abare but of the full offense style of play (flowchart, 2p, flowchart again, etc...)

 

Please note the differences between the two lists. Vanessa, my main, is up there with the characters possessing a stronger metagame. It just happens to be a defensive-based metagame, same as Jacky's. Akira is "legit", in other words metagame-free. That doesn't mean he can't be played in a pitbul/rushdown style which doesn't involve guarding /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Hope i managed to convey my thoughts better this time, thank you for taking the time to read this long post and please feel free to correct me if you still find blatant errors with my reasoning /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif </div></div>
Lei fei's 3 pk, p does not leave lei with initiative. If ur using vane whip out great circle mid instantaneously (i think its quick enough). Otherwise sit on a 2 limbed attack, and make it a 2 way guessing game. lei will have to stance change to avoid the 2 limbed attack and u can delay attack. I'm not defending lei fei by pointing this out, but u always seemed cool when we played so i wanted to let u know. The other option is just throw asap and u will get throw or throw clash, unless he does the stomp on ur foot move.

 

Regarding Akira, his reversals aren't really that great. His mid-punch/mid-elbow sabaki is slow as hell and not safe. You can easily get countered with faster attacks. His high punch/high kick/low punch inashi you can be thrown out of. Doing 4PKG~6P then inputting throw escapes is a bitch and it sometimes messes up your 6P follow up. As for the other inashi, Akira has to be in stance. If you're quick enough, you can just CD box step-guard your way out of it.

 

4PKG is still a good option. Beating standing P and 2P is phatorz.

 

Yup I know, i love it /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif Just gotta know how to use it properly.

 

you don't have to explain these things... all the none playing Akira players are experts these days, while the players who actually play him have no clue what they are talking about and is only sugar coating his gayness to keep the pressure by spamming.

God of strength / damage... Hell to the mother fucking yes!

God of constant attacking and being able to not guard... Hell to the mother fucking NO! I would love to see this style of play in VF5... VF4:EVO / FT maybe I might agree because Akira with insane stepping was a monster.

 

Most of you old school guys says that Akira in VF5 is a noob char. I got msgs on Xboxlive telling me "go learn a char that requires skills".
So I guess I picked the right character, since I have no skills and I have no clue of what I'm doing, that perfectly fits my style of play !

But I admit, sometimes, I must use guard button, I can't always abare with elbows :'(

 

Erm Akira is not a NOOB char by any stretch of the imagination....

I must say, I find it easier to win with Shun, he's just too fast and his Mix-ups are really good...

 

It seems to. Since you can DLC without 466PK, combo with 43P bounce, and you dont need to hitcheck anymore 66PK and AS3, Akira has become a noob char. At least that's what I read here on VFDC.

 

Eh? Not really Cat, not really

I found it damn hard to win with Akira; Pai, Jacky, Shun and Eileen gave me lots of troubles.

With Vanessa and Shun, I am the one giving them troubles, what with the cheeky lows and stuff...

 

Who else agreed with erdraug about Akira not needing to guard?

We'll all defend our opinion on our characters though, I feel exactly the same about people saying Sarah isn't underpowered in comparison.