Wolf's weak points (Formerly in FT Wolf Thread)

Re: Additional points, and use of Screwhook in combos...



WTF!

 

Re: Additional points, and use of Screwhook in combos...

Just following the discussion here a bit. The low throw can be beaten by any action done by the TR'er. Any dodge, attack, dashing, etc will make the low throw whiff. So in this case, a person who dodge throw escape will be able to avoid low thow, toekick stunner, and two or three throws. This forces wolf to rely on other tactics such as the catch throw, but the risk here is just a bit worse imo as some of the other characters. Just compare it to Akira's + risk/reward or Lion's wake up game. TKS is not only linear, but the dmg potential afterwards is not very high at all compared to say AKira. + is not only half circular, but have a big damage potential afterwards if it hits.

Just look at the possibilities
+
On guard - uncounterable (-3)
On any hit - Down and 25~37 dmg + TR / QR / Rising Attack guessing game or guaranteed small down attack (12 dmg).
Opponent must dodge in correct direction. Only reversable by Aoi.

TKS
On guard - Disadvantage of -12, throw / mid counterable. ( It's unreasonable to take the follow up attack into factor here since you are most likely trying to hit the throw part.)
On hit - Down and 62~70 dmg but only Rising Attack guess game.
Opponent can dodge in both directions. Can be reversed or sabaki'ed by many characters.


You can always try screwhook, but the move has no guaranteed reward on normal hit.

To the point about TR being vulnerable to mid attacks, so basically you guys are saying all TR's have a window for a guaranteed mid..... That seems kind of hard to believe to me. I understand special situations where you can hit the opponent's back and cause a back stagger, but the probability of that chance coming up is rather slim in an actual match. Plus, you can't hit the TKS on an opponent's back in evo anyways. I would just like to know how is it possible that a mid is guaranteed on all TR's and what's the reasoning behind it.

 

Re: Additional points, and use of Screwhook in combos...

I think it's kinda fun that people seem to ignore that many Akira users (yes the mighty akira) like to use his catch for Oki and use him as a argument of why it sucks. Go figure.

TKS and all other mids (like crouchthrow) are never guaranteed if the opponent isn't TR'ing from a face down pos. And in that case it's correct that tks won't hit them in the back (do 's etc instead in crumble mixups). Evertbody knows by now + is godlike (was hoping it should be more on gaurd for FT, it really should be), you can prob compare it to any other Oki move in the game and come out favorably - was hoping more for actual Wolf discussion now (god knows Shang isn't gonna bring anything other then whine to the table) then continued vs Aki discussion.

/KiwE

 

Re: Additional points, and use of Screwhook in combos...

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KiwE said:

I think it's kinda fun that people seem to ignore that many Akira users (yes the mighty akira) like to use his catch for Oki and use him as a argument of why it sucks. Go figure.


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Well I don't. I'll reluctantly second Shang in that I think Akira's catch is a waste of effort as an okizeme tool. Personally I prefer to variate between midattack(combostarter) timed at the recovery or a normal throw. And properly delayed launcher if I think my opponent's going to E-TE. It certainly has some effect to my opinion that Akira's catch doesn't give any proper guaranteed damage. Besides, it really _will_ whiff just as well as a normal throw. Just my opinion.

- Manji

PS. I'd really like to know the truth about the "window of unblockability" in the TR/QR/normal rise/whatever. This is pretty big urban legend if it is one. Somebody please confirm this one way or another.

PPS. I remember that TKS also hits from the back in FT. Maybe i remember wrong.. Had to say something on topic (FT)

 

Re: Additional points, and use of Screwhook in combos...

[ QUOTE ]
Just following the discussion here a bit. The low throw can be beaten by any action done by the TR'er. Any dodge, attack, dashing, etc will make the low throw whiff

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yes, that's correct. i'd like to echo that playing low throws are not a strong tool for a TR game as people have mentioned. it means either the opponent does nothing at all, or guards low.

i think this will mainly occur if you play a mid to low sweep guessing game, and nail the opponent who is trying to guess a low (inwhich case cannot attack or dash linear). however, wolf's SK / low lariat game is far from abusable. either way, it's a huge risk and a bigger act of yomi than alot of other choices.



EDIT: yeah, manjimaru, you are correct about the new TKS.

 

Re: Additional points, and use of Screwhook in combos...

I think TKS on the back worked ever since VF4...could be wrong though.

 

Re: Additional points, and use of Screwhook in combos...

[ QUOTE ]
PS. I'd really like to know the truth about the "window of unblockability" in the TR/QR/normal rise/whatever. This is pretty big urban legend if it is one. Somebody please confirm this one way or another.

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I thought it never was about it being "unblockable" but about that if you time a mid perfectly the opponent won't be able to evade it and be forced to block it. Then maybe it spun or something.

Ice-9: TKS doesn't work on the back. It hits but you can't do the hitthrow / don't get any stagger / nothing.

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The problem occurs when people just focus on beating your throws, stupid shit like wake up buffered backdash,

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Are you saying a backdash will win over a throw in Oki now Shang? It won't (and even then shit like gs has longer range then "normal throws") and if you still believe it will maybe you should use those catch throws as they have longer reach. Go go cockreferences m8.

I still think catch throws are great (ofc it varies from throw to throw). Just on the merit out of beating someone who rises to a sabaki/evasive move or someone ETE, TEG'ing along I think they are. A lion rising to meteor, whatever. Once the opponent starts evading the right way you're forced to either the SpoD (high risk, whine about Wolfs tks but the SpoD blocked puts you at elbowcounter / combo garanteed) or a delayed attack (which is also pretty high risk imo but hella nice payoff, nothing char specific about it though) or the catch. As Aki has a pretty weak throwinggame and pretty much punchbased I can understand why some ppl would like the catch. I don't use the catch myself though.

You're Wolf facing Aoi. Close to the edge of the ring and being raped with + every time she gets up, killing of knees, ss's, throws and what not. What do you do?

/KiwE

 

Re: Additional points, and use of Screwhook in combos...

what excitement...
ice-9: I know that hiro had said before tks works from the back in vf4/evo, and I know you worshiped hiro. This shows you blindy follow something without even bother testing it. tks doesn't work from the back, get it to your head. hiro was saying that you can tks them when they try to turn around, when the hit registers they are consider facing you. Otherwise it will not work. So please.. stop repeating yourself over and over in different threads.. it doesn't work backturned.

Kiwe: backdashing works great beating throws on TR in game because you recover low. Since you play vf on paper it's not something you can understand. And why the fuck would you do catch throw if they are not going throw escape you stupid fucking idiot??

Myke: what you are saying is that on TR.. Even if the defender holds nothing but G on recovery, the attacker can time it so that the move is unblockable. No one can disprove you since we didn't make the game. But I can tell you that. 1, you cannot realistically do this with Toekick. I've never had a problem holding G when I TR and still get hit by a 17 frame linear attack. Not knee, not TK, nothing. and 2, this application is useless in real play even if it's true because the time is too strict, therefore you can fuzzy guard on TR. I don't understand why you keep on agruing on something you said yourself works very well on people.. like me as you pointed out.
Either way, saying fuzzy guarding is about yomi is like saying the sky is blue, the ocean is cold in the winter or Jerky sucks... Everything could be based on yomi according to this definition, that's a given. We are talking about Fuzzy guarding as a technique, as you you recovery low, you look at him see if he attacks, and if he does you let go and block it. He can do a quick mid to fuck up your timing and stagger you, that's because you didn't release in time. saying he can stagger u regardless of what you do if he timed it right is crap. well.. maybe in akira's dfs case, but not wolf.

conclusion: myke peed in the wrong hole and now he smells like piss. ass-9 talks out of his ass. and kiwe just talks to himself and no one cares. and Team Shangster is owning.

 

Re: Additional points, and use of Screwhook in combos...

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Ice-9: TKS doesn't work on the back. It hits but you can't do the hitthrow / don't get any stagger / nothing.

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Just make sure we're all on the same page here. This is technically in the FT section of the board, right? /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif Well, TKS now works from behind in FT, as has been listed before.

<font color="yellow">.cheers.</font>

 

Captain Retard strikes again.

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Kiwe: backdashing works great beating throws on TR in game because you recover low. Since you play vf on paper it's not something you can understand.

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One should atleast be able to expect you to know the difference between crouchdashing and backdashing etc Shang. Backdashing / dashing (/) is infact a standard way to modify yourself into standing position. Instantly.

Ask your special ED teacher to teach you some vf101 like that, pref over a cup of hot coffee.

/KiwE

 

Re: Captain Retard strikes again.

kiwe you are truely a stupid fucking idiot. You have no idea what I am talking about. backdash take you out of crouching instantly and away from attacks and throws with any delay as well as many slower cicular attacks. You are so fucking clueless it's not funny. Keep on drawing those stupid pictures dummy.

 

That's great.

Lol. Yeah, keep backdashing to avoid throws and circular attacks (since you can't G cancel a backdash and you'll get caught in a evade) when rising in Oki Shang. Nice little tidbit with throwin in "delay" there like anybody will throw you with such delay in Oki with your modified standing. Tell me how that works out for you. Wow, you've really made it into a system with insulting ppl hardcore whenever you fuck up and say retarded things (must have had alot of practice). Since you can backdash away from a throw during diss (which you will be at when you rise from a TR) I would like to be the first to shake your hand as the founder of a new, better, fuzzy gaurd. I suggest we call it the Captain Retard all Possible escape (CRAP-e). Can't wait to start doing this when I'm hit by pk etc instead of fuzzygaurding (who needs that shit anyways?).

Cockreference, stupid, ass, piss and all of that. You're so funny! (Ever thought about being a comedian man?).

/KiwE

 

Re: That's great.

You are a stupid fuck.

 

Re: That's great.

Yes oh now I see it, modifying yourself from a crouching pos to be standing is a great way of beating throws. Thumbs up! Seriously, was that the best you could do Shang? I kinda was hoping for atleast one cockreference.

Anyways fuck it, you're sad and a idiot to boot. Can anybody confirm or deny though if there is such a window when someone TR's that they're forced to gaurd the midattack and can not evade it with a perfect mid?

/KiwE

 

Re: That's great.

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(high risk, whine about Wolfs tks but the SpoD blocked puts you at elbowcounter / combo garanteed)

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how many akiras do you see abusing SPoD as an oki tool over b,f+p+k or delayed SDEs? akira doesnt rely on risk.. but when it's called for, most players i see will try to delay heavy launchers like yoho, (or shlrm to keep abit safer). the odd occasion i see SPoD tbh.

i say again, nobody is complaining about TKS being punishable, but like any risky move with reward, it's to be used as a good guess in a few and not as a strong game tool..

 

Re: That's great.

I completely agree with what BK_ said. I don't think most of us Wolf players are really complaining ( Shang may not apply here), but I guess we are just saying that you can not simply say a TKS / Catch Throw is an effective mix up for the Oki game. Just look at any Wolf video, catch throw is rarely used, TKS is rarely used. In Evo, probably the safest and most effective pressure tool for Wolf are and . Everything else requires some sort of commitment. That sucks pretty bad compared to some of the other characters, depite having a big reward. Obviously this is mostly changed now for Wolf in FT due to some of his new moves namely , , and HCB +. Wolf finally can force opponents to guess the dodge direction although he still has to somewhat commit, but not nearly as risky as before.

 

Re: That's great.

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but I guess we are just saying that you can not simply say a TKS / Catch Throw is an effective mix up for the Oki game.

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As much as we have discussed this to some extent, Plasma had little trouble applying a TKS / catch throw oki game last Friday night. His timing for the perfect mid was fantastic and it made Wolf quite scary.

<font color="yellow">.cheers.</font>

 

Re: That's great.

KiwE - Backdash works great for beating throws on wakeup because no one in high level play tries to throw immediately upon someone's wakeup out of a TR. Why? Because it's common and easy to fuzzy! Because of this, throws on wakeup are very commonly (almost always) delayed. Therefore you TR, and immediately backdash, and the throw will whiff.

Of course no one option is the best, but backdash (and box step) is a good one.

 

Re: That's great.

why would you use Toekick / Catch as a mix up game? It makes no sense and it doesn't work. The only reason people use toekick stunner delayed vs TR is to beat dodges, since wolf has no full cicular attacks and Toekick is the only thing that's fast enough and gives damage on normal hit vs a dodge. If you are going to attack none delay, b,f+pk is a much better option since the risk is the same for twice the reward. f+pg is garbage to use against people TRing. that's just a fact. You are asking to get owned unless the other guy isn't playing well. It's pretty clear at this point a lots of people don't know what they are talking about or just simply talking out of their asses. keep on talking kiwe u fucking moron, you've already established you know jackshit, in fact you are so clueless you don't even know why you know jackshit.

 

Re: That's great.

[ QUOTE ]
KiwE - Backdash works great for beating throws on wakeup because no one in high level play tries to throw immediately upon someone's wakeup out of a TR. Why? Because it's common and easy to fuzzy! Because of this, throws on wakeup are very commonly (almost always) delayed.

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How can it be "common and easy to fuzzy! " while "throws on wakeup are very commonly (almost always) delayed." at the same time? That's very 3d.

I know that if I do something against someone in wakeup I sure as hell wont try to delay anything but a launcher (to catch someone ete'ing). Def not a throw and give up my advantage. Hell the entire point of catchthrows like Akis is that they have to have been started early in order to be "active" enough to be able to eat attacks. It's really funny that people still do ETE in wakeup as a way of defence imo if you could just backdash / boxstep away from these common throw/midgames etc. Guess I'm not "highlevel" in my way of thinking. /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

/KiwE