Wolf's weak points (Formerly in FT Wolf Thread)

Re: Additional points, and use of Screwhook in combos...

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Hiro's wolf notes has many good wolf combos and infor.

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Hey Shang, how about you check out hiros system memorandum aswell in which he describes using as a autonitaku while you're at it (in his case after a crumble which is great cause ppl fear the 46p in their back). Write him a mail that says Stfu after. If it's a QR it's even instant - no need for the dash (I'll let you try and figure out why the dash is). Yeah I'll stfu now, it's nice to see this thread is starting to turn into a nicer tone btw - thank you llanfair.

/KiwE

 

Re: Additional points, and use of Screwhook in combos...

you must be fucking joking.. kiwe go fucking play THE game for a change.. stop reading some shit and start telling people how to use such and such. This isn't VF on paper. Why don't you go actually try to do + auto choice in an actual match. Just shut the fuck up already kiwe you already made a fool out of yourself.

 

Re: Additional points, and use of Screwhook in combos...

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Interesting - why not do PP -> Shoulder?

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people use srew hook because it has the most damage potential.. get this.

shrlm, p, b+p = a special knock down situation which requires perfect TR, if you dont, you get a guaranteed down attack or ground throw, right?

well screw hook also does a special knockdown which is an air spin and also requires perfect TR (although not as fast as timing a TR on slam). if opp does not TR this (and this does happen just like KS ground hits happen). then you also get a guaranteed down attack or ground throw of your choice.

some people will also gamble d+k or db+k once in a while as a floor bounce hit, then ground throw when the opponent's mind has gone baffled -- ofcourse there's alot of risk there, but it's fun when i see it. if opp does techroll even the screw hook, big deal, you just continue standard TR pressure. yet you've still pretty much covered wolf's float damage limit.

in all it's the best air float for wolf.

 

Re: Additional points, and use of Screwhook in combos...

Heh, it's funny, but I know how to play all the characters except Lei Fei to a decent degree, but I never once thought that Wolf is low tier. Here are a few reasons why (and will indirectly refer to points previously raised in this thread):

BEST THROWING GAME

Yep. There's no question. Wolf has the best throwing game, bar none. He has three directions that take at least 70 points of damage...70!! Usually most characters have only one throw that can take that much! And in a walled stage, he could potentially have FOUR directions that take 70-100 points of damage. No other character is even close to comparing, except maybe Aoi and Kage who have four directions but with lesser damage (TFT excepting).

270 may leave Wolf at -8, but that doesn't mean it's throw counterable. It MAY be, I don't know. However, several throws in the VF4 and Evo already end up at -8, and none are throw counterable. Why? Because of range! (Why oh why do people always think -8 = throw counterable? Same habits from VF3...)

HIGH DAMAGE ATTACKS

A strong throw game isn't as threatening if you don't have great attacks (see: Aoi), but fortunately for Wolf, he can deal as much damage using attacks. Short shoulder speaks for itself, knee blast has great range, and toe kick stunner is the perfect move for crouching or unsucessfully dodging opponents.

They are all throw counterable, but such is life. The point is, if an opponent guards or gets a big attack guarded, he can be thrown for 1/3 damage. If he abares, he can get mauled for 1/3 damage. If he dodges, Wolf can catch throw, delay throw, or delay attack...all for big damage. No matter what you do, Wolf can deal damage.

Risk? I argue the risk of those moves is the same for most characters...throws have the same whiff recovery. Knee is only throw counterable, but only takes 1/3 damage. Stunner and short shoulder are slower in recovery, but I think this is in norm considering the damage, speed, etc. of other big attacks in the game. SDE excepting.

STRONG OKIZEME GAME

People who think Wolf has a lousy okizeme game is smoking. Catch throw and toe kick stunner gives him an automatic nitaku game. Sure, nothing maybe guaranteed after +, but the important thing to note is that Wolf is not at risk of damage once he gets into that position. + is an alternative, though not as effective IMO. He can also use his strong throwing game, delay stunner/short shoulder, etc. to diversify his pressure game.

Most other characters need at least three different attacks to have a good okizeme game, but not Wolf.

DECENT STRIKES

Screwhook...what a misunderstood move. First, it's a 14/15 frame attack, and for a character that has BIG attacks and BIG throws it's veeery important. Second, it has much higher damage potential than other 14-frame attacks with the follow-up and . Do Wolfs hit-scan this move? The answer is yes, though it depends. When Wolfs want to MC, they usually guard cancel and go for the combo. If the Wolf is using it to pressure, they SHOULD hit scan. If the opponent is crouching, use the follow-up for a guaranteed knock down. Ditto if the screwhook MCs for better damage. It's only when the opponent guards it while standing that Wolf can then play guessing games with the follow-up . All this, considering the damage it inflicts, is NOT bad. In fact, I think it's pretty good. And it IS semi-circular, which is an underestimated property by noobs.

Anyone who plays Wolf like a poking character doesn't understand him well. and + should be used sparingly and only at long distance. As someone mentioned, only when the tip of the toe touches the opponent should the sidekick be used. Wolf is high reward high risk...Pai he ain't. Now that he has in FT, fortunately, Wolf can poke a little better.

Aside from his big attacks, screw hook, and long range attacks, he also has useful to be used in close range. Again, for a character who can deal a lot of damage, the benefit of a fast and quick recovering attack is exponential. This sort of refers back to the poster that mentioned that Wolf is greater than the sum of his parts...put it this way: Jacky's elbow on Jacky is annoying. Give Jacky's elbow to Wolf, and it'll be disastrous. Wolf would be overpowered.

As I posted months ago, the two that I thought could potentially be lower tier in Evo is Jeffry and Brad. I have since decided that Jeffry is in fact good enough to be in the mid-tier. Goh is slipping down to join Brad. But not even once did Wolf cross my mind...and I play Wolf quite a bit.

 

Re: Additional points, and use of Screwhook in combos...

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well screw hook also does a special knockdown which is an air spin and also requires perfect TR (although not as fast as timing a TR on slam). if opp does not TR this (and this does happen just like KS ground hits happen). then you also get a guaranteed down attack or ground throw of your choice.

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While I agree that teching the screwhook is not trivial, I do however find it in a different class than teching the b+P. Screwhooks are tech'ed at least 50% or 60% of the time. My point above about using the P - Shoulder was purely around applying pressure. 95% of the time, your opponent will tech the second shoulder - there's no decision for you to make at this time...you're in pressure mode. As opposed to the screwhook combos, where you're watching carefully what your opponent will do and then applying the correct branch of the decision tree - ground attacks/throws or techroll/oki.

I'm not a huge fan of making decisions during combos. I'd rather do the combo, and then proceed with the plan I had - not the plan that's dependent on my opponent. (keep in mind I'm not including my opponent's mistake, i.e. mis-teching the screwhook, however I am aware of my opponent choosing not to tech).

<font color="yellow">.cheers.</font>

 

Re: Additional points, and use of Screwhook in combos...

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You must be fucking joking.. kiwe go fucking play THE game for a change.. stop reading some shit and start telling people how to use such and such. This isn't VF on paper.

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I agree Shang and think you should write to Hiro telling him that shit like that doesn't work, to stfu, listen to you, and stop making important vf documents and become a pointless flamer like yourself. So when can we expect to see this letter you will write (should prob take away his wolf document aswell)?

Anybody who TR's against Wolf after being for example crumbled is silly so their options are to QR or stay lying there. If you can't do shit like mentioned above, how did you put it, " it means you fucking suck!!". Shang is not the defenition of Wolf and what works, just penis envy in general.

Ice-9; Will be fun to see if Shang even tries to adress your post as an adult, good post anyways. His catch throws are great as I said earlier I've been 66p+g'ing to eat a Lei fei teching and doing + (which is hella strong for Lei) alot.

/KiwE

 

Re: Additional points, and use of Screwhook in combos...

you play wolf? you play with you cock more like. do the world a favor go back and read some of the shit before you drop in with your "i'm all mighty, your the noobie" horse shit. Don't forget ass-9 i've play you many many times, you aren't that good.. you cry on videos "omg i'm too nervous i lost", and you don't play wolf. Please take your 2 inch cock and your i'm the shit mentality with you to bed with you gf, you are gonna need it.
no fucking -8 doesn't auto mean throwcounterable, who are you trying to educate here a bunch of fucking dummies? out of range / back turn what know it's fucking common sense.. stfu already.
i'm here laughing my head off with your "analysis" of wolf's move here. again please go fuck yourself.. maybe you and kiwe can take your 4 inch combine cocks and please a girl for a change.

 

Re: Additional points, and use of Screwhook in combos...

Wolf's wakeup game is good, but not because of stunner and ++. You can easily fuzzy out of both, despite the fact that they have close execution speed. His wakeup game is good because of low throw, since it beats fuzzy with significant damage.

Screwhook's semicircular properties don't do it much good, because you're going to use it in a +2 situation mostly...in this situation, most would not evade, they will just fuzzy.

 

Re: Additional points, and use of Screwhook in combos...

Dandy, Please tell me how you can fuzzy out of a TR or QR situation. Please.

Also, on my Wolf comments, I forgot to mention which is a good complement to . Wolf also has the second best low kick in the game, limited as low kicks are.

Shang, over one weekend with mostly Kage and Jeffry play, I got my Wolf to 7th dan in Japan...in Nishi-spo, Sega High-tech, and Akihabara. I don't even remember the last time I played you.

 

Re: Additional points, and use of Screwhook in combos...

I agree that wolfs strength in Wakeup game doesn't lie with pure toekick stunner and catchthrows but I think they're both good.

Let's check out how Wolf puts ppl down for a moment;
(MC): Opponent facedown crumbled. TR = Fucked, QR = Lowthrow threat (always a threat), safemids like the which with the correct motion will turn into heavydown if they just lie there, catchthrows which will eat attacks, lowthrowthreat if they stay grounded, small down, hella strong throws, strong MC launchers bla bla bla.
(MC): Read above on staggerhit, otherwise normal.
+: Ending with screwhooks; opponent twisted in the air. Harder to tr, risingkicks become shit which Wolf can reverse free of charge or evade, good low (semicircular which knocks down on normal hit is good nomatter how counterable it is - just don't overuse it), good moves with normalhit stats (tks, ss etc, 4p), chargeattacks, great runningattacks. Great catchthrows and throws. Great wallpressure if you choose to go with 's instead and go for wallhit making 100dmg easy, p-throws, and most of the stuff under crumble.
>screwhooks: Same typ av pos.

Point is; basicly every knockdown Wolf does he puts the opponent in a footpos / fallpos that is very uncomfortable to be in. That's good Oki.

Btw; doing screwhooks after something like a (regarding the fuzzy situation) isn't good imo. Do backdash > SS instead which will win against both a 2p back and a evade (as it becomes a auto delay attack).

Other then that:

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KiwE said:
Shang is not the defenition of Wolf and what works, just penis envy in general.

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Shang replied (with a girlie voice):
you play with you cock more like..
Please take your 2 inch cock
take your 4 inch combine cocks and please a girl

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I rest my case. Please be quiet Shang - grown ups are talking.


/KiwE (Removed the pic)

 

Re: Additional points, and use of Screwhook in combos...

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Llanfair said:

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well screw hook also does a special knockdown which is an air spin and also requires perfect TR (although not as fast as timing a TR on slam). if opp does not TR this (and this does happen just like KS ground hits happen). then you also get a guaranteed down attack or ground throw of your choice.

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While I agree that teching the screwhook is not trivial, I do however find it in a different class than teching the b+P. Screwhooks are tech'ed at least 50% or 60% of the time. My point above about using the P - Shoulder was purely around applying pressure. 95% of the time, your opponent will tech the second shoulder - there's no decision for you to make at this time...you're in pressure mode. As opposed to the screwhook combos, where you're watching carefully what your opponent will do and then applying the correct branch of the decision tree - ground attacks/throws or techroll/oki.

I'm not a huge fan of making decisions during combos. I'd rather do the combo, and then proceed with the plan I had - not the plan that's dependent on my opponent. (keep in mind I'm not including my opponent's mistake, i.e. mis-teching the screwhook, however I am aware of my opponent choosing not to tech).

<font color="yellow">.cheers.</font>

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put it this way...

the screw hook does 1pt less damage then the shoulder finish.. and you get a chance to deal some guaranteed damage.

I'm not a huge fan of making decisions during combos. I'd rather do the combo, and then proceed with the plan I had - not the plan that's dependent on my opponent

Wolf does not have that freedom. you are chosing between a 50 odd percent of guaranteed damage and wolf's risky pressure game.. the safest issue is to dash up to the opponent once you have done screw hook, then you can switch to applying df+p as your main ground hit. you still have opportunity to follow up an attack once you have seen the opponent TR, you still have advantage and still apply the same game.

 

Re: Additional points, and use of Screwhook in combos...

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ice-9 said:
Dandy, Please tell me how you can fuzzy out of a TR or QR situation. Please.

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if you TR you will recover crouching

 

Re: Additional points, and use of Screwhook in combos...

Which has what to do with fuzzy gaurding?

/KiwE

 

Re: Additional points, and use of Screwhook in combos...

everything?

youre already crouching.

you have to stand up to be thrown.

you stay crouching until you see them attack.

then you stand up.

if you do this in reaction to the ++/++ mixup, youll block the stunner and the catch throw will whiff.

kthx.

 

Re: Additional points, and use of Screwhook in combos...

Fuzzy guarding doesn't exist in a wake-up situation because the attacker has freedom to time the attack. I.e. toe kick can be timed so that as soon as you get up crouching it'll hit, catch throw can be timed so that as soon as you stand up to avoid the stunner from crouch it'll connect.

There's no "seeing" by the defender, you just have to guess. Unless the attacker is incompetent of course.

 

Re: Additional points, and use of Screwhook in combos...

You would have to do the catch throw extremely late. It comes out in 15 frames, but the opponent has to be standing several frames before the 15th, as it takes several frames to be considered standing in the case of a catch throw.

If you stand up as soon as you see the 15 frame catch throw, it will still whiff, even though you can stand up and guard a 14/15 frame attack with the exact same timing. It's not even hard.

KG cancel -> throw or immediate low throw would be infinitely better in this situation.

And fuzzy does exist in a TR situation...in fact, it is very strong in this situation. No seeing by the defender? I don't know about you, but I keep my eyes open when I tech.

 

Re: Additional points, and use of Screwhook in combos...

i think those are 2 risky choices, if any one of them fails (and it seems like straight 50/50) then you are in for some guaranteed treatment on both ends.. most characters like kage, lion, sarah get much better choices, espcially when it comes down to their hopping cresents and kage's uf+k+g. kage atleast gets a catch throw which keeps him standing and still jumps lows.

i reckon the shoulder charge feint game is nicer because you can stay out of hit range and apply the same game. you can also feint the shoulder charge and delay an attack like an SK if you want an all-rounded option. rather than dashing in and applying one 1 of 2 (linear or high catch). which isnt one of the wiser gameplans for wolf imo, although wake up toe stunner can sometimes be effective from time to time, i can agree.

btw, i'm reffering all this to risers not TRers.

 

Re: Additional points, and use of Screwhook in combos...

Thanks BK, that leads right into the question that I was going to ask. I take it that a lot of you guys are pretty good with wolf and I wanted to ask about his shoulder feint game. I make no claim as to being "good" but I would say that wolf is by far my best character against humans and probably against AI too. Anyway, a lot of my wolf game is based around faking out the opposition with shoulder feints. It doesn't seem like this is common so I was wondering how legitimate this would be against "good" opposition.

thanks

Robin

 

Re: Additional points, and use of Screwhook in combos...

hey ass-9 omg I got 7th dan in japan wolf please suck my cock 10times over and out.. Are you a fucking idiot?
fuzzy guard doesn't exist on wake up??? this is why you are a stupid fuck. unless he cannot block the toekick he can fuzzy guard it.. is that a concept too hard for you to understand stupid fuck? I don't know which shit hole you play in japan, but you are such a fucking idiot. 7th dan and completely clueless. maybe YOU just have to guess, who the fuck made you the authority of you can do this or you can do that?
stfu ass-9 you stupid fuck. keep on crying in japan like a little shithead that you are.