"Why we play"

Re: The difference between VF4 and other fighting

You could be right but I doubt it, only because the game is moving towards easier and easier stuff. Also they are keeping out 'cheap' stuff like infinite PKG's, iaigeri kicks, and instant modification of attacks. What else is there?

/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>~~~ Don't make me rape you with a sharp stick ~~~/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>

 

Challenger Comes!

Man is there any other reason to play than the "stranger challenge buzz". I was out and about last week looking for VF4 in LA arcades. I didn't find it, but I did find Tekken 4. I kinda suck at Tekken, but thought I'd give it a bash. Was doing moderately well against the CPU when some serious looking Asian dude challenged.

And there it is -- heart rate instantly triples, adrenaline through the roof. Even though I suck at and don't even like Tekken! (BTW I got schooled... although this guy was obviously pretty good, and I got him down to 1/3 of an energy bar in one round with my mashing... I guess he was screwing around!)

Same thing happened half an hour later in SFIII 3rd Strike (which I'm much better at). This time I won

But it all took me back to the VF2 days, when there were many more good players around. In the Bourke and Russel St. arcades in Melbourne you were more or less guaranteed of a challenge. The uncertaintly, the pride that is at stake (I mean, you play a game a lot and you tend to think you're pretty good), all make it an intense and exciting affair.

While I agree with comments made earlier in this thread about having to be careful about making comparisons with real martial arts, I have to say that in my experience (I've fought some tournaments... been nastily injured in some tournaments =] ) the anticipation, the heartrate and adrenaline is quite similar. Someone once said to me that all fear boils down to 'fear of the unknown'. Maybe that's true (I don't think this is the forum for that debate!). It's certainly the fact that you are up against an unknown quantity.

This happened to me in VF1. I had been playing for months with really only one friend. We thought we were pretty good, and I had despatched a few scrubs at various arcades. Then one day at RMIT I met a "stranger challenger" (Kage versus my Pai) who was so far beyond me that he didn't just beat me, he re-educated me as to the nature of the game I had been playing for months.

At the time is was terrifically embarrassing. On reflection I think that was the moment that I stopped treating VF as "this cool game I play" and started treating it as "this game that is as worthy of study and practice as chess".

Just my 2c

grib.

 

Re: The difference between VF4 and other fighting game

I've never played KI to any significant degree, so I'll refrain to comment, but DOA2 is actually a very "fair" game. There's not much in it that is abusable, although it is a very "high stakes" game in the sense that two or three of the right guesses will win you the match. But, all the characters have the capability to win with two or three right guesses and that's what makes the game fair.

The big difference between DOA2 and VF is that in DOA2 the guessing game is forced onto the character...i.e., at every juncture it's the classic hit-throw-reverse game. VF, on the other hand, has a comparatively bigger emphasis on spacing, timing and judging recovery times. Instead of the guessing game presenting itself at every moment, the VF player can force the guessing game onto the opponent.

People who can play at a high level in both games will know what I mean.

 

Re: The difference between VF4 and other fighting game

DOA may be fair, but it's dull. I get what you mean about anyone is able to succeed with 3 correct guesses. However, the method of getting that 1/3rd lifebar should at least be halfway challenging, it shouldn't be d/f+P, f+K, PPPK with no chance of struggling out of it. Before you say it, yes, VF2 is like that also, and it's easy to do in VF2. I actually have decided I -like- that in games. It's one of the reasons VF2 is so fun compared to VF3. Still, every game of DOA1/2 that I've played has bored me to death compared to VF2. I don't know if I've put my finger on the reason why, but I know it's true. It's an unfortunate waste of resources, there's alllll that programming talent pushed into a game that is near identical, mechanics-wise, to the VF series...
but just not as good. Put the sound and graphics guys in AM2, drop the gameplay guys and leave those decisions to the people who do it best, and end the series.


/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>~~~ Don't make me rape you with a sharp stick ~~~/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>

 

Re: The difference between VF4 and other fighting game

In regards to your 'VF more about brains' argument: I'd agree to a limit. A high level VF player requires far more overall hand eye coordination, memory, reflex action and creative construction on the fly than a Streetfighter player. this is down to VF having FAR more options (moves) per character, meaning fuckloads more tactics and styles to prepare for and consider. I just don't like the 'more about brains' phrasing, although all in all this statement is correct...just makes Streetfighters sound a bit thick

In regards to your VF2 movements arguement, I seem to remember an Akira infinite combo. With the examples you gave, I'd agree that VF2 is DEFINITELY more demanding of 'command input accuracy and timing' than VF4, although tactics like this are often a product of ill testing on the developers part, they do count if they are used in the finished product. I'm sure they are almost ALL eradicated from VF4.

When I said 'huh' I mean I did not know what a 'isurugi' kick or whatever it's called, was.

X-Men VS Sf and all those games are not that skill demanding, believe me. There seems to be three basic routines in one's match. Attack, lift, chase (with prepractised button combo, often light, mid then high) super, or coax into super range, or simply counter an attack or chase with roll super.

Yawn. Believe me. VS games are very 1dimensional when it comes to skill. Even the most enthused will tell you.

In relation to DOA 2. Yes the counters and so on do take high level damage. I don't like this. I think this can be customised in the 'hardcore' edition. At the same time it's what forced me to 'counter the counters' and hence the crazy ass matches that me and my bro have.

DOA 2 reversals are universal to high attacks, mids and lows, with the correct press. This does not go one way. The high skill shit comes in when people reverse reversals. Someone will reverse a high with a sweep, that reverse gets reversed often with an overhead, that gets reversed into whatever, etc...

In regards to Rock Paper Scissors arguement, I'd agree if it were not for the fact that you cant throw someone who's performing a fake (kick then cancel with guard) or a basic punch that is not even a quarter way through it's animation. Rock Paper Scissors is not a bad things, they just need to sort out what is more plausable as the rock, the paper the scissors. Perhaps consider a move classing system where low impact move (pressing punch or a low poking kick for instance) can be thrown out of.

I guess the original point was what was the difference between all those games and VF4.

It just sums down to levels of 'manual dexterity', 'command input accuracy', 'ammount of situation preparation', 'move memory', 'tactical creativity' and 'tactical recognition' needed. VF4 has this in a high level throughout, I believe, but not the 'highest'. Feel free to add to this if I've missed something.

When in doubt, do nothing.

 

Re: The difference between VF4 and other fighting game

I'm converting you bit by bit =)
RE: XSF - I thought of it that way too, dash, launch, air combo or attack or jump, dash, super. It was way way waaaaaaay more complex than I thought. Check out james chen's xmen vs. street fighter combo faq http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/6645/
... it's really well written and it's clear he's the undisputed combo master of the game. He's one of the content people on Shoryuken.com.

A random example:
With Cyclops vs. opponent near corner - do a dashing jump at the opponent.
j. jab, j. short, j. strong, cancel into guidable optic beam super. (you'll be a short
ways from the floor). Land. Dashing short, d. strong, cancel into his uppercut.
Don't press any buttons for extra hits. The opponent will be hit twice and tumble back to earth. Do a fierce throw -just- as they hit the floor from the uppercut. If timed correctly it will count as part of the combo. After the opponent lands from the throw they bounce up into the air. Do a stand roundhouse, hit kick twice for the second hit of it, then cancel that into his regular beam super. The opponent will be airborne and a little ways from you. Quickly dash, jump, and hit them with a jumping jab then a jumping roundhouse. Cancel that into a midair GOB super, and aim it forward and then upwards to get the most hits.
-------
Anyway, he's also got a combo with ken that puts the hurricane kick into one combo ten times without it being a 'repeatable infinite' situation.
The creativity comes from finding unusual ways to link 'small' 2-6 combos with more small combos and then finding places where you can do on the bounce combos to keep it going. Some of the stuff is hard because of the button speed and timing involved, for example cammy can launch juggernaut, do a super jumping jab-short-strong chain, link into another one, double jump and immediately do another one while juggy is still reeling from the last aerial strong punch, link to another, triple jump into yet another, and then time one last set of jab-short-strongs before finishing off the combo. The timing between the last jump attack and the first double jump attack (and then the last double jump attack and the first triple jump attacks) is pretty tight.
Other combos require exact spacing, to the point where they will only work against very specific enemies from very specific ranges. I'll stop before you fall asleep though.
While none of the motions or special attacks in XSF are hard, the finger speed and the timing needed are pretty impressive.
And yes, I know... XSF and all other vs. games are shit =)
... the faq author said it best, XSF is one of the best puzzle games out there. As a game between two people, it's horrible. But as a single person test of skill it offers endless entertainment.

As for DOA: throws are the only thing that keep it from being rock-paper-scissors, but throws just make it rock-paper-scissors-Whiffle bat. It's still pretty one-dimensional. Think about it this way. If you took away the awesome graphics and made VF4 an NES game, how long would you bother with playing it? Now do the same for DOA2. Without the graphics and "VF feel" to disguise it, the gameplay flaws would be a lot more clear. It just gets old playing a match, doing 2-5 reversal guessing games, winning/losing, playing another, doing another 2-5 reversal guessing games, winning or losing again ... etc. I never play a VF match and think to myself "That match was all about reversals and how I incorrectly tried to stuff them." ... it happens all the time in DOA2 however. What that game needs is to take half of the moves in the game (the riskiest, slowest ones) and make them irreversible. Then it -might- be more fun.

Also, I thought you thought VF4 was Da Ultimate Shizzit, but you said
>>VF4 has this in a high level throughout, I believe, but not the 'highest'
... which game do you think tops it?


/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>~~~ Don't make me rape you with a sharp stick ~~~/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>

 

Re: The difference between VF4 and other fighting game

In response to D and Creed, RE: DOA2:

I never played DOA more than twice, so I'm not talking about that.

Now, everyone should know that when we say "rocks-papers-scissors" in DOA2 it's not really a 3 way guessing game. It's more than that.

This is the way the hierarchy goes. Substitute "::" for "beats". I assume that not guarding (i.e. not doing anything) is not an option.

High attack :: throws, mid punch and kick reversal
Mid punch attack :: throws, crouching guard, high reversal, mid punch reversal
Mid kick attack :: throws, crouching guard, high reversal, mid kick reversal
Low attack :: throws, standing guard, high reversal, mid punch and kick reversal

High throw :: standing guard, high reversal, mid punch and kick reversal
Low throw :: crouching guard, low reversal

High reversal :: high attack
Mid punch reversal :: mid punch attack
Mid kick reversal :: mid kick attack
Low reversal :: low attack

I'm not going to figure out the probability trees for you. Now that's two characters in a non-specific situation.

It's slightly different in other situations, for example, when one opponent is staggered. If you're the attacker and your opponent is staggered, this is how it goes:

High attack :: mid punch and kick reversal
Mid punch attack :: high and low reversal
Mid kick attack :: high and low reversal
Low attack :: high reversal, mid punch and kick reversal

High throw :: high and mid punch and kick reversal
Low throw :: low reversal

As you can see, things change a bit when the situation differs. And this is only one general non-character specific situation.

DOA2's guessing game is simplistic compared to VF's, but it's not THAT simple.

When we say "rocks-papers-scissors" it's a generalization of the core "attack-throw-reversal" game, and there are situations where you can pare the guessing game down to something more basic without sacrificing too much.

For example, when you're staggered and defending, you should only think about these options:

Low reversal :: high throws, low attacks, high attacks
Mid punch reversal :: low throws, mid punch attack
Mid kick reversal :: low throws, mid kick attack
Do nothing :: all reversals

This is a 4-way basic guessing game for the defender. Against certain characters who you know don't have a good mid punch or kick attack (i.e. one that doesn't take that much damage or launches) you can eliminate a mid reversal to make it a 3-way guessing game.

Now if you're the attacker and you know that your defender is thinking this, why bother "mixing up" with weak low attacks and the like? Hell no, the smart attacker will go along with the 3 or 4-way guessing game (in that situation) and use his maximum damage options.

So as you can see from this post, DOA2's guessing game is NOT all that cut and dry, although it's somewhat constrained by the generous timing window of reversals and staggers.

The good player in DOA2 will know how to play with the probabilities and adjust accordingly against the opponent, opponent's character and the guessing game situation at hand.

So next time someone is about to bash or praise DOA2, please try to make sure you're doing it the right way.

If you like games that rely on brain power, DOA2 is full of it. It IS a game full of yomi. Its biggest problem is that once you understand the probabilities associated with each situation and know how to best punish the defender for it, the game gets a little boring.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by ice-9 on 10/19/01 01:11 PM (server time).</FONT></P>

 

Re: The difference between VF4 and other fighting game

Hello again Creed

Wow. That XvsS combo faq and the example you gave gives your previous arguement some considerable weight. That looks like an absolute mothe******r to pull off!

I like that guy's descript as it being a good 'puzzle game'.

The thing with DOA2 is that the sheer power and ease of the reversals, on top of other 'high punishment, yet little effort' moves, put people off. I was one of them at first.

I then saw a copy at BB video for 5pounds and thought I'd give it a try. Again, all the easy reversing and high priority, little effort moves pissed me off, then through constant vigilance and 'tactic breaking' of my lil' bro's playstyles led me to figure shit out. Some moves are NOT reversable. The Bruce lee wannabe can't have his QCF+k reversed. Okay. That's one move.
Again, to only achieve REAL enjoyment from this game and see what I believe to be it's true state (the way it should be played) is to master bouncing reverses and trying to set player's up for a counter. This game is more like sparring than actual fighting. What really highlights the 'rock paper scissors' element of this game IS the reversals, especially when used at Master level. It's basically, Low, Mid, High, Overhead, Jugglestart, Takedown, Guardbreak, Throw, Guard, Reverse.

I would never disagree that this HAS NOT got the rock paper scissors element. All fighting games do, however VF4 has it moreso than most. Not all a bad thing either.

The only thing VF needs to eliminate this is by putting moves in 'class' categories, so that low class moves can be countered by grabs, etc, and high class move cannot be grabbed. It's highly annoying that a fake can stop a throw! But hey. Such is the nature of the beast.

What makes it stick out more in DOA2 is that characters have far less moves (hence tactics, options, etc...) and the matches are much quicker, due to high level damaging (default. Me and the bro set it all low for some EPIC battles. I guess it's overall 'fast and hard hitting' pace style makes things more 'blatant'. I'm not so sure about your 2D Vf and DOA2 example, although I understand your point. You believe DOA2 is more rock paper scissors, than VF4.

What I am sure of is that DOA would be far better if they change the reversal button to a parry button (like the first DOA, only faster reaction timing) and have throw combos that could come off it specific to the move coming in. of course if you don't know the specific reverse (after the parry button is pressed), then you simply throw out an attack which can be attacked, parried, whatever. DOA's goal INMO was to give the fighting game world another feature which is greatly prominent in real martial arts, that being parrying. When they saw how popular reversals were in Tekken 2, they probably decided that, that would be the way forward. It's definitely a great showpiece, but nothing more until you master the counters.
What they ended up doing was giving DOA2 what DOA1 lacked (characters with soul and individual feel) and gave it a more 'attractive' gimmick to welcome beginners, as many argued DOA1 was too difficult to get into, being that there was no block button and you could only parry. Perhaps they should go back to it? Who knows.

VF4 is great. When I said it was not the 'highest' did not mean one game bettered it. What was meant by this is that some games lack in other areas, but beat VF4 in one or two. EG, VF2 may beat VF4 in terms of 'accurate move within accurate time move string' skills, yet VF4 has more soul, more tactical options, etc...Tekken 4 (yes. I know) has some more sophisticated evades (Paul Pheonix's step back, Kazuya's duck and charge take down, etc..). Whatever. Everything has a price. Some high some low.

When in doubt, do nothing.

 

Re: The difference between VF4 and other fighting game

Okay, close enough to agreement to kill the thread. I want to argue the tekken 4 thing with you (that it has better evasion options) but I can't...
haven't played it (or VF4).
And yes, I can see how the designers of DOA would come to the conclusion that the game should be reversal based. They're right. Reversals are badass. Both the concept and the implementation and the animations are very, very appealing. They lose their appeal when they become so strong and so commonly used though.

But I'll buy that this is closer to a real life martial arts battle.

PS: XSF going for like 3 dollars on ebay.. get it while it's hot... hours of fun...



/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>~~~ Don't make me rape you with a sharp stick ~~~/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>

 

You haven't played VF4 yet!!!

Hey Creed.

My god! I truly feel for you. Let me put it into context :

I come from an SNK gaming background. Big circles, chains and crazy juggles. In the 3D realm I have always loathed VF3 and loved the Teken series, bar Tekken Tag. DOA and DOA2 were great experiments in the 3D fighting genre. They may just crack it in DOA3. Tekken 4 was great fun.

VF4 made me stop playing Tekken 4 imediately and every other fighting game in exsistence. It's simply incredible.

Thank you Uk-guy for introing me to the game.

The tekken evasion thing is merely based on characters having additional 'relocation' movements to your 'dodge' and 'backflip's of standard in current 3D fighters. Paul Pheonix, Yoshimitsu and Nina have some great ones. People hardly use them unless they're pro VS pro, as Tekken's overall game engine tends to encourage Offensive tactics. These evade moves were in exsistence since T3.

You're right about the reversals in DOA2.

XSF for 3 dollars. Not bad...Probably gone by now though!

It's been a pleasure =)


D

When in doubt, do nothing.