Why online VF = impossible (WAS re: Famous characters...)

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

[ QUOTE ]
don't see why you people are so harsh on online playing. It's an option... don't use it if you don't like it

[/ QUOTE ]

this is always the tripping point for most folks. and the best part it is the same end point as religious people picketing a film they've never seen (last temptation of christ, dogma). Most people that bitch about how unplayable VF is online have never done it. So ultimately their opinion is based in darkness and complaint. shrug.


[ QUOTE ]
GE: who's the one built a stick for vf2online??!

[/ QUOTE ]
I honestly don't know. I thought the only ones using sticks had been myself, sal and Adnan (now there's a competitive fellow who still plays online, go figure!). who?

GE

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

The fact is why is vf2 possible when i play with godeater we've even had matches where we've played with no lag. Sometimes it can be laggy but i live in the Uk and he lives in canada. So i assume we will get lag due to distance. It would be nice if Sega put a lan mode so people could use seperate memory cards on different machines.

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

[ QUOTE ]
GodEater said:
So ultimately their opinion is based in darkness and complaint. shrug.
[

[/ QUOTE ]

You forget to say: therefore they can go fuck themselves, which I will gladly add.

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

what worries me the most is that even throwing online to doa would just gain more sales. If half of the people who can play online vf4 with little lag then that's fine.

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

This is exactly my point ^^^

If DOA goes online (which it is) the popularity will only increase more, and so will the internationa community. Same goes for Mortal Kombat (bleh!).

Take a look at the VF 4 Evo finals in Japan, now how many players were not Japanese, exactly, if there was online support for VF4 or Evo, or even VF5. The game would be so much more popular.

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

[ QUOTE ]
Most people that bitch about how unplayable VF is online have never done it. So ultimately their opinion is based in darkness and complaint. shrug.

[/ QUOTE ]
Granted, you can't truly know what something is going to be like until you've experianced it, but that isn't to say someone can't know what 90% or 95% of the experiance is going to be like, and that any conclusion they draw from that is false. Saying that VF Evo online would be unplayable at a competitive level is based on various knowledge and experiances: Knowing and experiancing how fast VF is, understanding lag (I'm sure alot of people here have played other games online) etc. all come into it and alot of knowledge comes into the one conclusion.

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

[ QUOTE ]
Zero-chan said:

Good sir, you've just managed to reduce a long-winded argument to a solid point made in a few sentences. I'm very impressed.

(And your icon... Martial Champions. Jeezus, I'm surprised people in the US even KNOW about that game. It's still fairly famous in Japan, although not for anything resembling deep gameplay, if you know what I mean.)

Anyways, I separated this thread from the original, since it's quite off topic now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I try to avoid most arguments being too long because then both parties lose focus of their points entirely.

I loved playing MC when it came out here back in '93 and still do. I was ecstatic when MAME finally began to emulate it, because then I didn't have to play the cruddy PCE Super CD port of it /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Rachael is my girl.


[ QUOTE ]
DrunkenCat said:
Akira's knee would still be possible to execute, but it would just be delayed because of lag. Or do you mean all moves with longer execution time and not just his knee specifically?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I mean it fairly literally. Even though you would more or less be able to execute it properly on your side, the execution would get messed up by the synching of the two sides or more, and thus the dropped SINGLE FRAME would result in the input YOU correctly made being incorrectly made on the othe rside. Thsi results in two things happening:
1) the move doesn't go off at all.
2) the move goes off on your side but not on the other and the game goes badly out of sync to where both players are inputting correctly but playing almost totally different games (a result of bad coding or just bad lag or a combination of both. See an example of a ZSNES netplay game hiccupping on one side an you'll see the result that I'm talking about).

I'm not about to give any sort of compromise in my playing just because some people that don't give a damn and are casual about the game want it online. If I can't do a knee or reversal properly then I'm not playing, it's as simple as that.

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

Ah I think I'm out of my depth here. I always thought it was as simple as Player 1 executing the knee then the game sending packets to Player 2's game to that tell it to do Akira's knee animation.

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

[ QUOTE ]
hikarutilmitt said:

I'm not about to give any sort of compromise in my playing just because some people that don't give a damn and are casual about the game want it online. If I can't do a knee or reversal properly then I'm not playing, it's as simple as that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I get where you're coming from but you have to understand that casual players are as important, if not more, to a games success as "diehard fans" are. In one hand you want the game to be more popular and in the other you alienate those who don't take it as serious as you do, although they went to the store and paid the same amount of money that you did. You want the cake and eat it too : "Oh and while your at it bring me a bottle of Dom P."

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="orange">the execution would get messed up by the synching of the two sides or more, and thus the dropped SINGLE FRAME would result in the input YOU correctly made being incorrectly made on the othe rside. Thsi results in two things happening:
1) the move doesn't go off at all.
2) the move goes off on your side but not on the other and the game goes badly out of sync to where both players are inputting correctly but playing almost totally different games (a result of bad coding or just bad lag or a combination of both. See an example of a ZSNES netplay game hiccupping on one side an you'll see the result that I'm talking about).
</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

Ever played VF2 PC online? Funny how the lag is definitely present, yet we're still able to pull off Akira combos. I can knee. I can ST, SJK, PKG, iai, DE (with a keyboard no less). Sounds like the game is synching just fine. /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not about to give any sort of compromise in my playing just because some people that don't give a damn and are casual about the game want it online. If I can't do a knee or reversal properly then I'm not playing, it's as simple as that

[/ QUOTE ]

once again: no one is asking you to. In fact, I'd prefer you didn't just so I don't have to hear you whine about why you lost. Those that play have fun, those that don't can try and crash the party smelling of booze and ignorance but we'll just turf your ass outside.

For the life of me I can't figure out why people have a mass problem with other people wanting to play online. The "irresponsible" quote was by far the funniest. This is a "no harm" problem, kids; no one gets hurt by on-line-play so there's no one to protect.

If you want to protect the game itself then I laugh at you. hahahahahaha.

GE
<font color="green"> your definition of "fresh" is very narrow </font>

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

[ QUOTE ]
GodEater said:
The "irresponsible" quote was by far the funniest. This is a "no harm" problem, kids; no one gets hurt by on-line-play so there's no one to protect.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, i said it. I said it's irresponsible to say that a 2 or 3 frame lag "wouldn't matter" in VF, because the whole fucking strategy of the system is based on frame advantages and disadvantages. You throw a random 2 or 3 frame lag on any one side at any given second and it ruins that aspect of the game. What i did not say was that it's irresponsible to want to play VF online right now.

BTW, up until now i haven't offered an opinion on whether i would want to see VF5 online in the future. I would. I don't want to play VF4 online right now, but that's my prerogative. I know *I* never said i didn't want you to play VF online. Like i'm trying to take away your fun or whatever... how egocentric is that? I don't even know you. You could live forever or die this second, and i don't give a shit which.

The only thing i care about pertinent to this discussion is what VF4 online would be. I wouldn't play it because i don't feel that the outcome of the round should be determined by whose connection is fastest. I think it's a mistake on Sega's part to implement a half-assed online component to what has until now been an oustanding fighting game. The best by far. To introduce that level of mediocrity in the game...

To some of us, the timing required to win in this game is what separates it from the likes of MK and Tao Feng. IMO, VF4 online right now = another shitty fighter. I don't want to see that happen to what i consider is the only really excellent fighting game since Tobal 2. I'm of the opinion that quality shouldn't be compromised for the sake of online play... it's a matter of principle. I don't want to see it done until it's done right. Simple as that.
That's my opinion. Doesn't matter how anyone feels about it.

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

lol. you obviously do care or you wouldn't have felt the need to tell me you don't.

I don't remember assigning anything to your word 'irresponsible'. I just thought it was the funniest thing ever. Still do. Keep in mind I didn't reply to you personally, I only just referenced what I thought was a funny word in a gaming thread. so, however you want to get bent out of shape is up to you. well done.

To VF5 online then! when all the impediments that currently exist will likely still exist (speed of light was once written in this thread) and the only thing that will have changed is the degree of complexity in the game itself (probably going up) but for some reason should rise above the mediocrity that exists right now!

Onward!

GE

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, i said it. I said it's irresponsible to say that a 2 or 3 frame lag "wouldn't matter" in VF,

[/ QUOTE ]

Er... actually you completely failed to comprehend EVERYTHING in my post with your reply. I never said a 2-3 frame lag "wouldn't matter", I said it could be disguised. All move counterability could remain perfectly intact.

That's partly because when something is guaranteed by a window as small as 1 frame, then in general you will BUFFER it, not enter the command on the 1 exact frame that you recover. So if you buffered more than 3 frames in advance, and with a ping of 3 frames or less, the attack could come out perfectly in sync for both players without even having to skip any animation frames.

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

[ QUOTE ]
GodEater said:

once again: no one is asking you to. In fact, I'd prefer you didn't just so I don't have to hear you whine about why you lost. Those that play have fun, those that don't can try and crash the party smelling of booze and ignorance but we'll just turf your ass outside.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, yay, now I'm being attacked as a whiner for saying that online play would deteriorate the game itself. Don't try to act high-and-mighty just because our opinions differ. You want online and I don't unless it's 100% frame-perfect. We can agree to disagree and leave it at that, if you'd like, but at the same time you need to realize that there are more fans of VF than casual players and that, in the end, the fans are what keep the games going.

They're much the same as fans of other, older series like Rockman and the classic Castlevania formula. Casual gamers sell copies, yes, but they don't keep the franchise going.

This topic should probably be locked, anyway, since it's kind of against the "rules". /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

[ QUOTE ]
Llanfair said:

Ever played VF2 PC online? Funny how the lag is definitely present, yet we're still able to pull off Akira combos. I can knee. I can ST, SJK, PKG, iai, DE (with a keyboard no less). Sounds like the game is synching just fine. /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I still haven't had a chance to, but the amount of data being sent between peers in VF2PC is much less than that of VF4. They have to send more than just who has made what moves.

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

[ QUOTE ]
hikarutilmitt said:
<font color="orange">I still haven't had a chance to, but the amount of data being sent between peers in VF2PC is much less than that of VF4. They have to send more than just who has made what moves. </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

You're going to have to elaborate a bit more on this. I can't see how the games would differ very much in their data transfer. I do not know how VF2PC sends its information - not that it matters - but I just can't see how the games differ enough in that their online data transmission would be vastly different.

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

It has to do with the data packets being sent. I'm not a specialist, but you DO have to send more than just basic movement controls in online games to make sure that the physics engines stay in sync. Since VF4 has much more data in the game overall per match, it only makes sense that it would require more or larger packets, which results in a lower amount of possible bandwidth to be used.

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

[ QUOTE ]
It has to do with the data packets being sent. I'm not a specialist, but you DO have to send more than just basic movement controls in online games to make sure that the physics engines stay in sync. Since VF4 has much more data in the game overall per match, it only makes sense that it would require more or larger packets, which results in a lower amount of possible bandwidth to be used.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bullshit. What 'extra data' does VF4 have? All that needs to be sent is player movement/attacks, everything else is resolved on the other end. You really shouldn't try to argue a point when you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

 

Re: ARRGHGHGHHHGAHHAHADHHH!@$@#$Q#W

Lets think for a minute here. Games like Counter-Strike, Battlefield and Quake reqiure a much larger amount of data to be sent to the client due to the complexity of the inputs in those games (I'm sorry but moving an 8 way stick and 3 buttons is nothing compared to the complex movements of a mouse) and the number of players playing on a server. Yet the net graph that keeps track of the bandwidth being used by CS, packet loss, and other statistics about your connection clearly shows that the game requrires about a constant 5KB/s upstream and downstream to avoid having your latency affected by your bandwidth. As sixtyten stated, any argument about VF4 reqiuring some more data to be sent to the client than a game like CS is absolute BULLSHIT. As I stated earlier the issue in online VF is latency, and if, theoretically, a sort of "magic" netcode that compensated for the difference in player's latency to the frame (16ms) the game would be viable at a HIGH competetive level online, provided that this kind of netcode is actually programmable (maybe someone more familiar with this topic could enlighten me...)