Virtua Fighter vs Dead or Alive discussion thread

I didn't even know open/close stance was an issue. I'm going to try again to sit down with DOA5 and get to grips with it (at least unlock Pai). What I loved about DOA was what we had in the first game: quick, parries and reversal that were easy to do and didn't interrupt the flow. It was fantastic. Since then the series has gone further and further away from what made it so fresh in the first place. You can see in this clip (the guys aren't playing very well but still):



The holds are just quick parries and the flow continues.

 

Funny you mention the earlier holds. One of the things I mentioned to a friend of mine (he doesn't play DOA because of the holding out of stun) was that if it were absolutely necessary to keep the stun system in the game and holding out of stun, this is how I would tweak it. Only regular holds would do damage. If you're stunned and you're holding out of stun, a successful hold from stun would not damage the attacker. It would simply be a parry or something just to get him/her off of you. All it would do would just stop his offense but cause no damage to him because you shouldn't have gotten stunned in the first place. I think that would be a good mechanic because if an attacker is on offense, he shouldn't be afraid to continue on offense. As it is, it's even risky to go on the offense because if your opponent holds correctly, now you're the one taking the damage.

The stun/hold system is the biggest gripe in the game. If DOA would either get rid of it or completely tweak it would make the game a million times better. It wasn't until DOA4 that they put so much emphasis on the stun system. Prior to that, it was stun, launch. Now it's stun, stun, stun, launch.

But yeah, open/close stance plays a big role in DOA. There are unholdable stuns such as a limbo stun that you can only get with certain moves when you're in a particular stance.

 

I don't really understand the whole hold-to-stun-escape thing or the DOA stun system in general for that matter. I haven't really played the new DOAs extensively where that is a feature. Sounds like It would be better to just have a stun escape system. If someone is too stunned to block how do they manage a reversal or parry?

Watching that old DOA clip actually made me very nostalgic . I could play that right now. I remember playing with my mate having volleys where we were both right up in front of each other throwing out different moves and just parrying each other trying to outwit the other. It looked fantastic and was exciting. *sigh*

 

this is random but you just said mate. Are you from Australia?

 

Ivor Bigguns:



Ironically, he might love DoA

 

Ha ha! No, I'm in the UK. We say 'mate' here too.

 

He would LOVE DOA. I think Team Ninja and him are on the same wavelength.

 

Ooooh yeah The exploding edge of the ring from DOA1! I'd like to see that again. If I remember correctly you could walk on it so you can't just get pushed out for a ringout, but fall down and it's your funeral.

 

So far so good. We've had some decent discussion in this thread.

I would just like to reiterate this fact. The fact that DOA5 has VF characters in its game is VERY significant. That is just the first step for something like this to even take place. After seeing that, people had already begun to question would a crossover game eventually be made. Well, Team Ninja showed that the characters from both franchise CAN work well together in the same game.

Many suggestions have been given so far, and I hope many more are shared. But as many suggestions come in, there are many questions to follow up. One of the main questions, if not the absolute main question, that need to be answered is who exactly is going to develop the game: Sega AM2 or Team Ninja? I don't know how much influence we can have on that one as that will definitely be determined by those two teams. Though there are 4 possibilities that can result from this:

1. Sega AM2 develops the game
2. Team Ninja develops the game
3. Sega AM2 and Team Ninja both do separate versions (VF vs DOA) and (DOA vs VF)
4. Sega AM2 and Team Ninja work together on the game (ideal solution if possible)

Keeping the aforementioned possible solutions in mind, I'll come back and reference them, the next thing that needs to be determined is what do we want in the game. Reading most of the posts, majority of them agree that we want a fighting system like VF but with the DOA presentation (stages, story, etc). Two complaints that have come about is that 1) VF while fun to play is boring to watch, and this coming from one of our top VF players and 2) DOA lacks the depth that VF has but is very enjoyable to watch at high level play. To sum it up, VF lacks the flash that DOA has and DOA lacks the dept that VF has. So then how do get the best of both worlds in one game? Now time to reference the previous question.

1. Sega AM2 develops the game. Question: Can Sega actually make a game with flash? The series has existed since 1993 and each game has pretty much lacked it. There is a story that they are not really telling.

2. Team Ninja develops the game. Question: Can Team Ninja give us the depth of a system like VF? The main issue many have had about the game is the stun/hold system, the amount of guessing involved, punishment options, etc.

3. Sega AM2 and Team Ninja both do separate versions. Questions: If this were to happen, each developer could have his way with how they want to develop the game. Possible problem: Would the opposite community support the other developer's game?

4. Sega AM2 and Team Ninja work together on the game. Question: Have two companies ever worked together on a project like this? From what I've been told, it's usually just one developer taking over the whole project with the other developer just providing licenses for the use of their content.

Discuss.

 

If it was separate versions, I doubt either side would play the others game. I've seen DOA players talk about VF, but they usually just bitch about DOA, go back to playing Namco/Team Ninja games, and name drop VF for e-cred from people who don't what VF is about either. Right now in the PNW scene, the MK guys are reachiing out to the DOA players since there is more crossover with the players in those games.

It's really just hit effects that lack the flash and even then, I still find VF watching VF matches more than any other game due to the fast paced back and forth decision making. I've seen people say the same and can see where the come from, but since I've understood the VF system better than in the past, watching VF matches is still fun, even the old ones.

Example:

Now if they could get that with more flash I'd be cool, the issue is downtime, and VF doesn't have a lot of it. But being a Video Game I can see where VF6 will probably add in some kind of "hype" cinematic and maybe change the character presentation (which might cause Japan to riot?)


DOA on the other hand is cool for a bit, but you know where the match is going and what the player needs to do to win, due to the lack of options in the game, so while the moves look cool and so does kicking people out of a building (which will always be awesome) I can watch VF for longer without getting bored, whereas DOA (even a lot of fighters), I can't say the same.

EDIT: Watching Winter Brawl DOA5 finals matches now. It's pretty awesome!

Another thing. I would push for Push Button Config. Never ever, leave that out. I know both games are 3 buttons, but since people, especially white people play 3D fighters and feel the need to stick out, this would make things a lot more smoother.

 

I guess the ideal solution would be for them to truly collaborate on the game. I don't know if this is possible. If it were just one team or the other then would it not just be VF featuring DOA characters and visa versa? Having one team make a game and then the other also make one is just too long, man. It would be years before it's all said and done. But if I had chose I would say Team Ninja with AM2 in consultation since I would prefer the AM2 team to be working on Virtua Fighter games.

Regarding flash in Virtua Fighter I guess there is none because, well, there is no flash in VF. That's the way it always has been. I'm sure they could put some in if they wanted to but they obviously don't. I think VF:FS looks grand in motion. It doesn't need exploding barrels or collapsing buildings because it's a pure 3D fighting game and it's all about the fighting. I was playing with a friend at the weekend and he had Lei-Fei and I had Shun Di. We don't know the characters that well but know our way around the system and are able to improvise and experiment. It looked like everything I need a fighting game to look like. It looked fantastic without the need for falling off a building every now and then.

But I will admit the theatrics of DOA are quite exciting. Perhaps a balance could be more a DOA2 level of environments which feature multi-rooms and some falls but not the over-the-top stuff in DOA5. I think that's too much.

I think people should be careful what they wish for on the story front. The DOA5 story is painful to play due to the so-called "story" in question. Virtua Fighter story is only slightly better (but still very poor) so not much to see there.

I can't comment on the relative depth of DOA5 since I haven't played it that much. But the idea is surely to create something new from the combination of the two series so just adding DOA characters and "flash" to VF system isn't really getting there. They need to strike a balance between where the two sit on the scale and surprise us because that's their job as developers.

 

As far as Team Ninja being the one to develop the game, even if AM2 were in a consultation role, how many of the VF players would play the game considering that AM2 wouldn't actually be touching the game during development? Could this community actually get behind that, or would that elitist attitude I've noticed in many come out and hate on it? I already know that if AM2 were to develop the game, a big part of the DOA community would back that.

I'm aware that VF has always been about the fighting. That's why it has been praised as one of the best fighting games. But at the same time, that's also just one of the reasons why people stayed away from the game. Because that's all there was to the game and nothing more. To a lot of people, the game is just plain boring. I mean, if you have this great fighting game that people actually have great things to say about, why aren't more people playing the game?

And yes, the theatrics of DOA are definitely quite exciting. When we were at Winter Brawl and the crowd was watching DOA5, they were thoroughly pleased with what they saw and they were actually getting into it. So if they were that into the game while watching it, how come more people aren't playing it.

These games are at the extreme opposite ends of the spectrum. And if this game is made, it is the chance to do something new. Putting together a game with the depth of VF but the presentation of DOA I would say is new because the VF characters never had flash and the DOA characters never played in a system with much depth. If they could meet in the middle and develop this, it could be amazing.

And I'm sure everyone wants AM2 to continue to make VF games but working on a project like this doesn't mean they would never make another VF game. If a project like this were extremely successful, it could possibly bring more attention to both series in the process. At least, that is what my hope would be.

 

The DOA players would hate it more than the VF players. A lot of those guys bitch and moan (and to be fair every game has those kinds of people) but still play it. They, like anyone else talk a good VF, but don't show support themselves. Even people at FSD are saying AM2 needs to develop it. AM2 in consultation role would be fine.

Again people are all talk and on top of that, don't know how to play VF. I bet they don't even know the difference between a Fuzzy Guard and CD Fuzzy Guard. They might know about the mechanics, but they don't know how to apply them or where. A lot of those same people don't even know, that VF is fast and think "d00d it's deep and methodical, the slow pace is what makes it the deepest fighter ever. It's too hard for me." mfw Hell, people here and various fans of the VF series think this, too...


I remember some famous DOA player was saying the Sidesteps "work like they do in VF", lol.

 

I can't really say they would. I play with quite a few of them and they rather enjoy VF. Some of them have actually shown support in some of our VF tourneys here on the East Coast. I wish I could say the same was true in reverse about the VF players returning the favor.

I can agree with you on everything except the part where you say they may think it's deep and methodical because of the slow pace they feel it moves at. I don't think anyone thinks a game is deep because they feel it moves slow.

Who said this so I can smack him in the back of his head, lol. Hell, not when some LINEAR strings in DOA can track mid string when in VF if you're doing a linear string, you will avoid the whole string if you're evading.

 

I don't like random stage damage, but I do like VF3's stages.

 

For the record I started off on tekken 1 and soul blade. I'm also a fan of VF and doa so I'm indifferent on most things but I would most definitely like to see a VF cross DoA. Ideally I would two versions of the game to come out. I know that would never happen though so at the very least I would like am2 to do the system and make use of the doa stages they at least do that right.

Story mode isn't that bad not nearly as bad as VF online dressing up male characters in pink thongs and knowing on the other side is a grown ass man that did that. That's embarrassing to play a gown ass man that thinks elementary humor is still funny.

Hey didn't know you played this game I lurk these forums too.

 

I once saw someone online dress up his Akira like Hard Gay.

 

At least they give you all the items for $30 at most, instead of releasing pre-made costume packs that add up to $100+....

 

I might be coming off as a prude maybe just a wee bit. While its hard to get me to laugh I actually like hard gay. I like him more now when I found out he's straight. He definitely had me convinced. But shit like a dude in a pink thong its like this. "Hey guyz look at my caracter I put a muscular guy in a thong and its pink HAHA!" "Its funny cause I put him in pink which is a color prominently liked by females its funny rite guyz? Guyz?" That's how I see that crap not gonna name any names but there's a goh player that put him in a pink thong. *cough cough*

I'm assuming this is a jab at me. You get it cause this is a FG forum and I said jab. Okay so anyway jab at me due to the dlc comment and the ... at the end of your post indicating silence. I guess me stating that I'm indifferent isn't clear enough. What I was saying I am loyal to no game that also goes for console. I like VF more than any other fighter which is why I got that costume pack. I want to see another VF so decided to support am2 further by buying the costume pack.

I'll give you a quick rundown of me I'm a old school gamer started off on atari my interests eventually evolved into rpg's and fighters. As PS2 came around I got into every genre at that point except for sports. I had around 5 games on xbox and 80 on PS2. Then the new generation came along I got a 360.

Why because I'm a gamer I am loyal to games not console. At that time I felt 360 was better still do except when it comes to rpg's PS still has that. I feel people use the term "gamer" loosely. They use it to describe a person who plays one game and that simply not a gamer in my eyes. So that pretty much eliminates mmo players they play one game all day. There were times I stopped being a gamer. When I stopped being one is when a new 3d fighter came out. So shortly after DOA 4, VF5, SCIV, MK9, SCV, and VF5:FS. Around the releases of those games I became a player of those games not a gamer. Notice how I didn't put DoA 5 in there I do like it but my job took every bit of free time I had. To sum up this long winded post what I'm saying is I'm neutral to all games. I don't pick sides on any game or console. Why you saw that pink thong comment as a stab at vf I don't know especially since I already stated its my most liked series.

 

Actually another cool, feature which all games with customization should have, is the abiltity to turn on/off whether you want to see your opponents custome.

I know people who didn't buy the costume packs because of the dudes in thongs, and just bad all around costumes.

I have an El Blaze custom as Rape Man :\