Virtua Fighter 6

You bring up good points but you forgot one thing and that's the low throw option that the grapplers (and Pai >_<) have Low Throws Low Throws beat Fuzzy and CD Fuzzy, which are used to cancel the evades. The Low Throw is risky, but if you know your opponent likes to ECDTEG etc. you can Low Throw them right as they go for the cancel.

Do now they can still go for the launch since you showed them you will take the risk of the Low Throw and be successful with it, but you are ready and reading, so their launcher gets evaded and you still have the advantage.

Still have to disagree about damage being the same as the grapplers lose the advantage of high damage throws that make them fearful. The throw game is still good in FS, simplified? Yes. Dumbed down? No. There is the general rule of Forward being high damage, Back being the position switch and Neutral being the mixup, but even then there are some exceptions. Else Blaze turns that rule on it's head while still adhering to them.

 

Low throw to beat fuzzy is great when you pull it off, definitely. But if you look at a situation where they will normally fuzzy in, like say -5 or whatever, there is a lot of breathing room for a defender to do something else, so you're committing to an option that 1. beats only fuzzy, and 2. is punishable if they do anything else. It's not solid, but it's that extra bit of mindfuckery.

But then there's this: http://gohnotes.wordpress.com/2012/07/11/tech-guide-fuzzy-guard-and-its-hidden-attack-option-select/

So if the opponent is expecting a delay throw, they buffer a whiff punisher. This has the added effect of negating the low throw

If you look at -5 in VF4E, this is a context where there is no fuzzy available to your opponent to escape basic nitaku. Every character has the option to commit to certain universal options - TEG, EMETG, backdash or abare with a quick move. There is also ECD-(buffered 33P) with some characters - notably Kage with his mC launch Yougeki, which was still vulnerable to delay attacks and circulars, but could negate both linear attacks and throws with a punisher. Obviously there are other character specific tools like sabakis and evasive moves as well, but they were often slow, linear and vunlerable to specific move (classes w/ sabakis), as always.

The key is, the more certain you were of what the opponent was going to do (and understood the appropriate option) the more the game would reward you. This general rule was manipulated to favor the defender to an extent I don't like in VF5FS, just through awkward feature creep/system changes like fuzzy up to -5 and ECDTEG.

In VF4 was more overlap and more consistent rewards in what options the player on offense could choose vs. a defending opponent's options. So you could definitely play with varying degrees of saftey/risk. This ensured that more specific reads were rewarded better, at least in general. You had nitaku as a base (so, for the sake of simplicity this was often a mid up to ~16f or throw. And yet - If the attacker knew the defender was going to do an evade, you'd get a free launch if you delayed launcher. If the attacker knew the defender was going to just stand and block, you could go for a throw mixup (MTEG at lower disadv was quite hard iirc), guard break, low, , a string, character specific stuff, etc. The less certain you were, the safer you could generally play on both ends of this equation.

So if you extrapolate this VF4 logic onto VF5FS, you have a game where defenders don't necessarily even have to guess the specific offensive option to punish one of your choices with damage and a knockdown and still be safe otherwise - so you can have your cake and eat it too on defense, and the attacker just has to chase you down when you decide to switch gears defensively.

In fact, I'm half-convinced that if you can simply mix up defensive techs in VF5FS and execute them consistently, it gives you a huge, disproportionate advantage over anyone who can't, even if they know the system. If you're a smart player and can do the techs, it turns into a wild goose chase where players attacking you only want to do the safest possible options when you're at + frames.

So, like, for the most part, I understand the system changes and the implications, and admittedly I'm not particularly good at applying myself to put this knowledge to good use, yet since I started with a sort of dilettante's interest in VF4E back in the day, my understanding of the differences makes me NOT want to play all that often.

 

Yeah, about vanilla VF5 graphics vs. FS graphics, vanilla ran 1080p on PS3 while FS runs 720p. The in-game picture is also way more zoomed in FS, hence the textures do not look as good. There is your downgrade.

 

Sorry little kid, your theory is full of holes . One , VF 5 vanilla was 1080p up scaled. Not true 1080p. The bump mapping And other shaders look better on vanilla because they have more memory space to store the data. As far as FS characters being zoomed in leading to the. Visual downgrade, that's the most half baked notion I've ever heard. Think for a second in vanilla , when the characters get close ups for their intro quotes and win quotes, you could see more of the detail in the charcter's pores and clothing, showing off the bump mapping. Since the characters in FS are zoomed in (close up!), You should see more visual detail, not less. Common sense, really. Simple fact , a 2 MB jpg will always look better than a 1 mb jpg .

I just hope to God VF6 is not a digital release , or we will get stuck with an inferior product.

 

Well, if vanilla 5 was upscaled to 1080p but really ran 720p native, then there shouldn't be any more details on the textures and such since FS is matched in resolution, and so because of the view is more zoomed in, the texture will look a little bit more smudgy because they aren't any better than in vanilla.

But this is really all pretty irrelevant.

 

I think Sega should really try to make VF6 look photo-realistic. Keep the core mechanics the same, but make the graphical and animation improvements so large, that you end up making a fighting game where it looks like two real people are fighting each other. Achieve that, and you don't need to put in pyrotechnics and laser-attacks and such to bring in more players, because the game would just be mesmerizing to watch, no matter who you are.

Then keep the already impressive-looking fancy attacks that VF is known for, and your game starts to look like you're playing a kung-fu movie. I think that's all Sega would really need to gain more attention for VF worldwide, while keeping the current fanbase. Just make everything look realistic enough that people feel like they're right in the middle of a kung fu movie.

 

It's pretty sad if graphics is the only thing that draw people to Virtua Fighter.

 

I'm fortunate enough to have dual HD montiors for my PS3 set up, and when you look at VF5 vanilla and VF5FS at the same time, I can understand why some might say VF5FS is zoomed in, but I think its more a matter of camera angles relative to foreground rather than anything to do with upscaling or zooming, but that's just IMO.

Also someone in this thread posted that PR statements and custom banners were taken out of VF5FS because of the potential for Profane use, or profanity W.T.F? How can Sega worry about profanity when ppl can use Mikes/Headsets to say far worse and more than can be put in a PR statement. An on PSN a nother player can just send you and Msg saying " You dumb ass pussy, you fuckin SUCK!" so taking out the PR statement does nothing, when in a player room I can announce over my microphone to everyone in the room "Oh My, what big black ding dong I have any suckers in the house?" LOL Anyway VF6 should put the PR statements back in.

Also @Phoxx and others who in part appreciate VF because of its sense of realness, and the comparison to potentially having a VF match look like a KungFu movie:

1) I'm in your camp (I kind a feel the same way too)

2) But, as long as VF has Launchers, floaters, etc it will never reach that 'realistic movie feel' goal

3) Another thing that detracts from the realism is the lack of a stamina/energy indicator
No matter how complex or involved a VF combo set is or how brutal an attack was the
fighter looks and responds just as fresh as if no blows were every thrown.

4) If you mention taking out launchers, juggling, floaters, from VF6 you will be FLAMED by more than a few members on VFDC

So when I want absolute realism in a fighting game I go straight to UFC undisputed 3. That's the most realistic Mixed Martial arts simulator out there! No it does not look like a kung fu movie, but it does have the most realistic Judo, Karate, Muay Thai, Kick Boxing, Wrestling, and Boxing in any video game that I'm aware of. If they were to add Kungfu, and Taekwondo and a little Tai-Chi-Chuan to UFC Undisputed 3, it would be the perfect martial arts game.

IF VF6 were to use the same physics engine that UFC Undisputed 3 uses, OMG. IMO that would be totally AWESOME. BUTTTTTTT! VF Veterans would then cry FOUL, and the first thing they would say is if you gave VF ragdoll physics or any other kind of simulated physics engine then it wouldn't be VF any more, it would be a different game.

So alas, Because of the VF diehards, the Virtua Fighter will never be able to evolve into the game it truly meant to be. It will always be more realistic than Tekken, SC, Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat etc, but it will never be as realistic as it could be, because the VF die hards simply won't allow it!

 

Gameplay realism doesn't seem well suited to the genre of arcade fighting or the history of the VF series in particular. I'm curious as to why you think that, masterpo.

I'm all for any new 3D fighter that isn't part of an established franchise, perhaps with that aim or something more imaginative.

Tech-wise it'll be surprising if the jump from VF5 to VF6's engine is larger than the move from VF4 to VF5's engine, where the improvements to the game seemed pretty incremental, well except for changes to the models/art style.

 

The quest for photorealism is cancer. It is literally killing videogaming.

 

Again, good post but you are still looking at it from a "This is how it was in VF4, why doesn't it work now" type of mind set. I already had buffered P,K in mind as its valid option against any Fuzzy as that is the point, to force the hard gamble back onto the opponent. Knowing how to bait the Fuzzy-> Attack and maintain the offensive is still there. They know you know how to beat Fuzzy so they have a counter prepared, while you have a counter to their counter, ready to go.

I understand where you are coming from as the main thing I like about 4 was how tight the windows were. At the same time FS is a step in the right direction as it loosens up those windows but keeps a nice middle ground not as loose as 5 not as tight as 4 .

I wouldn't mind continuing this in PM as to not further derail the thread.

ON TOPIC:

Realism was never part of VF, but animations are. That's another area and probably the main thing SEGA should focus on in presentation is to come up with an engine where the animations will hold their own for longer than 5 years. The animations look awesome still, but their are still spots where it does look dated. Not so much on offense but on defense in how the opponent looks when they get hit.

VF5/FS still looks like a Kung-Fu movie, yet some parts do show their age. Mainly hair, hard knock downs where the opponent falls face forward and certain attacks are the biggest ones I notice.

 

long, long, long ago this same topic came up, and I posted a lot of Print Ads etc for the original Virtua Fighter series. ( I don't want to go to the trouble to find all of that again) but if you google enough you will find. When Virtua Fighter was first released on the world, both Sega and the print media often referred to it as the "first martial arts Simulator" it was not always called that, but it was called that many times. In fact, that was one of the things that distinguished it from other fighters back in the day.

Agreed, realism and arcade fighters typically don't mix,. BUTTT! Virtua Fighter changed all that, and brought a degree of realism to the arcade fighter that had not been seen before. Of course Sega also included in Virtua Fighter the idea of Launchers, Juggling, and combos, because that's what defined an arcade fighting game at the time. But VF's original claim to fame was the fact that it was more realistic than its competitors. Again, google VF interviews, reviews, etc and you'll see what I mean. I assure you, that if Virtua Fighter 1 was being released to day, it would look a lot more like UFC3 undisputed than Mortal Kombat.

Agreed, I don't think VF6 will be a big jump (engine wise) from VF5FS (I wish that it would) but I don't think it will. I'm not looking forward to any innovation at all in VF6. IMO Sega should revamp the concept, give it new life and a new UFC3 type physics engine. Yes all of us hardcore, long-timers would be pissed off. Because all of our skill, and knowledge of past VF games would be worthless. (nobody wants to throw away all that time and practice ) On the other hand the excitement and thrill of starting all over again in a fighting game that is both deep and has an incredible future ahead, would be enough, for most players to just bite the bullet and dive in. Yes we would complain at first, but after the initial pissin, moanin, and whinin we would recognize that it was for the best. Virtua Fighter that has an engine similar to the UFC undisputed 3 engine would be FN awesome, and it would revive the Virtua Fighter franchise.

Keep in mind the UFC franchise that featured Judo, Karate, Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Wrestling, and Boxing sold Millions of copies, as compared to VF5FS 200,000,to 500,000 copies worlwide.

@CoffeeZombie Agreed the current quest for realism is destroying certain genres in the video game industry. Honestly I don't think arcade fighters have anything to worry about.
SF, Mortal Kombat, Soul Calibur, TT2 communities are not interested in , nor calling for more realism. The only arcade fighter that I know of where many in its community cry for more realism is VF. The fact of the matter is VF never really did fit in with the other arcade fighting games. It didn't when it was first released, it doesn't now. In fact that's the main problem with VF! Its too realistic for most Arcade Fighting fans, but its not realistic enough for the Mixed Martial Arts simulator crowd. Its in Fighting Game Limbo.

Virtua Fighter 6 should either add fireballs, flying, magic, and kangroos and join the ranks of Tekken,MK, SC,BB etc , or it should drop Launchers, juggles, and any other anti-gravity gameplay, and become the slickest mixed martial arts simulation on the market.

If VF6 truly became a mixed martial arts simulation, Sales would go from hundreds of thousands to millions

 

I will be posting any "leaks" whenever they hit the net im pretty good at finding stuff like that,yes leaks.

 

Me likes this part, grunt, grunt..

 

Master Po that's called Marketing 101. At that time 3D = realism, was the buzzword. This shit was never realistic, lol. VF has always been about 1-2 hit exchanges and both players being able to press buttons on offense and defense to keep them engaged the entire time.

If VF came out today it wouldn't be looking like UFC, since this game has always been an homage to Kung-Fu movies. What game are you watching, jesus lol!

 

Yes, realism.

Maybe you should just play UFC games instead of VF.

 

Its all kewl Femto, but I have done my research.

2 points:

1) its not only what was going on in Video games and Kung Fu movies

2) in the early 1990's Gracie was bringing MMA to regions around the world and MMA was
heating up in a serious way. Check the history of Grand-Prix, MMA etc in Japan.

also
if you look the verbage (which is fairly typical when talking about VF) of the print media.
the author straight up refers to it as a martial arts simulator!

http://www.contactmusic.com/pages/vfighter4x18x04x02

I found dozens and dozens of such references going all the way back to VF1.

Its not just the 3D=realism concept my friend, its a little more than that.

If you spend as little as 30 minutes reading past articles, interviews, advertisements for Virtua Fighter, Yes you will find mention of realistic 3D, but you will also find that it distinguished itself as a martial arts simulator!

And the fact that real MMA was an open question at the time, in the US and Japan among other places, probably had some impact think about Jeffrey's style from a historical perspective both he and Vanessa.

C'mon don't just smash Po because its Po!

 

I play both, and I can hold my own in both

 

Haha....that Lau bullshit is funny as hell...

I wonder what brand of wire Sega used for the jumps?

On a related note, I suppose looking back now, the floaty and juggling crap was a bit more acceptable with blocky action figure looking characters, but as the graphics got more humanlike, that stuff just starts to look even weirder.

And I am very much against floating/levitating crap in my VF, but for some reason I am cool with it in VF1.
That said, I DONT'T want it in my VF6

 

Master Po: you just proved my point it's all marketing. There are animations that make you go "OH SHIT THEY DID THEIR HOMEWORK, THAT LOOKS JUST LIKE (insert move) FROM (reference )!!1!" but that's where it ends. Nothing wrong with having fantasy elements combined with realistic aspects ( animations). Those UFC fighters are boring because they willl never be as fast as VF, well nothing will, save for Virtual On games, but you get the picture.

Not sure if Arcade fighters are your cup o' tea, dude.