Virtua Fighter 6

I think that this game is probably more fun if you have not really mastered a lot of fundamental VF skills. But I also think that the older versions were just better design-wise and that this must reflect a diminishment of the talent at AM2. They were dealing with the same basic technical constraints in VF4 and VF3. Those designers could have given everybody loads of strings and safer moves all around. They could have made fuzzy the most useful thing ever. They could have given you two throw directions and lazy LTE. They weren't limited by hardware in terms of the game mechanics.

It isn't that the older games were perfect, but this version is just wack. There is too much reward for playing in a bitchlike fashion. I play like a bitch. Sometimes when I lose, I feel pretty sure that I would have won if I had played more like a bitch. It used to be really hard to get the bitch's edge. EDTEG took a fair amount of skill. Yeah, there were weird, obscure techs in 4 and evo, but not too many people did them. The game just felt more open and fun. I remember driving to Scranton to play Evo at Throwmaster's... Sure I'm older now too, but this game doesn't inspire the same devotion. For me, and I think for most of the the vets, we are talking about specific design choices here, not some existential lament that the game has been mastered and we are bored.

For me, the way for me to improve my FS game would be to know the frames and strings better, use more safe pokes, backdash more, less abare, more evading cancels and fuzzy guarding, less playing while impaired... None of that stuff seems very fun and the finished product would be an even lamer fighting style. I wish that some fighting game would somehow turn back the clock on VF design wise. I am very curious to see what will be done with 6. It will either be better or worse. That is my bold prediction.

 

I think VF5FS is more open than VF4. Fuzzy guard is stronger, which makes certain key moves safer. This combined with the new throw system is good because it gives me the option to just block instead of constantly doing multi throw escape inputs like in VF4/VF5 vanilla. MTE is the execution barrier that had to be removed to get more people into the game. IMO it was a good decision that makes the game less option select oriented and more based on reads. The only thing I prefer about VF4 is the movement.

The main reason people complain about FS being too "safe" is because the sidestep recovery is nerfed compared to VF4. You can't really sidestep and punish someone unless they're doing something that's already unsafe on block or has slow startup, so the person who limits themselves to the fast/safe pokes will usually have a better chance at winning, but that's how almost every fighting game is. If this game had VF4 sidestepping, the new side counterhit stuff would be too strong which is why I think they nerfed it. FS has a very powerful throw game though and really good guard breaks to open people up. I don't think the game is too "safe" at all.

We also haven't seen a proper VF sequel in 7 years, which is why current players may be getting bored.

I think the main reason many new people don't play is that they just don't like the character design aesthetically or don't like the character personality, so maybe that will change in the next game.

 

More safer moves
Quest mode off and online
Story mode
More customization options ,

 

Happy_Friend et al, This is a fascinating (at least for me) a truly fascinating set of exchanges here. It appears you're kind-a-sort-a making the case that perhaps VF3 and VF4 more or less set the standard for the VF fighting engine. They were more open, required more skill they were in essence more vertical, there was a learning curve and somewhere to go after that. So your sort-a-kind-a taking a VF-Purist POV and saying that VF and the AM2 have strayed from what made VF truly great in the first place that why the game doesn't inspire the same devotion for you. Discussion about lazy LTE, EDTEG, playing less abare, and talk of fuzzy guarding just seems normal to you.. LOL! throw escape direction options, pokes and frames, are not esorteric to you at all. You're not bored because you've mastered the game, its because the theoretical underpinnings of VF fighting engine has undergone certain changes as to not make it as much fun as it use to be LOL. If you could only read your post from the eyes of a noob, or barely intermediate player!

2 weeks ago in celebration of my birthday I had a bunch of family and friends over, and of course they know I'm a gamer, and of course we played fighting games for a good chunck of the day. SCV, VF5FS, DOA5, and Tekken6, with a little Deadliest warrior thrown in . Some of us were familiar with fighting games, a few were really good with fighting games, and some were absolute noobs. But in general the conversation was: Law knows Jeet Kun Do, how real is GOH's Judo, who would win between Akira's fighting style and Feng Wei's Kendo. Marduk could kick Jeffrey's ass. Raven is a more realistic ninja than Kage LOL. Ling Xiaoyu is faster than Pai, I like Baek better than Jean etc. Lots of talk about graphics, and expressions, Gen Fu vs Shun Di vs Wang Jinrei. The nice stages, the music, customization options, ring names. Heiachi's muscles look more fluid than Jeffrey's, how easy it was to pull off certain moves in the various games. If I use Eddie Gordo or Dural is that cheating? LOL.

There was no talk of frames, EDTEG, and Lazy LTE, tech rolls and fuzzy guarding and playing abare, safe pokes. WTF is that stuff. All the talk was centered on the fun of the game, the different fighting styles and who you would like to fight like in the real world LOL. And beyond everything the most talked about thing was how sweet some move or set of moves looked and how awesome it looked when Marduk pulled off one of his three stage throws. With the exception of me and one other player no body even knew what a fighting engine was, let alone the theory behind the fighting engine.

But you do! Rodnutz, Tricky, All you VF gods know every little nook and cranny of the game, every frame, every disadvantge/advantage, sabakis, inashis, ETEG, EDTEG, LTE, fuzzy guards, wake up games, safe pokes, setups, mixups, playing abare, techs throw escape directions. You almost have at the tip of your tongue the complete theory of all the VF fighting engines and how they compare and which ones are better or worse in which ways. But no, no, no, you're not complaining because you've squeezed everything there is to squeeze (and then more) out of the damn game., You turned off, because at the theoretical level VF5FS has changed and the quality and workmanship has taken a turn for the worse but someone would only know that if they had understood at the theoretical level the other VF engine that had come before.

Happy_Friend, Rodnutz, Tricky, etc you guys have FN mastered this game, you probably know as much about its inner workings as AM2 does LOL. Happy you wrote:

"I wish that some fighting game would somehow turn back the clock on VF design wise."

the reason that will never happen for you, is because you know too much! can't put the genie back into the bottle again! Part of the fun of VF3 and VF4 was all there was to learn about the game. At one point you had no idea what: frames, advantage, ETEG, SAFE, etc even were. It was the excitement, newness, and mystery of learning all that shit about a fighting game that was so romantic and enticing. Now you know it all. You, Rod, Cozby, all you cats are a bunch of VF analysts, VF theoreticians , VF scientists, you leave no stone unturned, theres no mystery with you guys and VF any more. Its no wonder the game is getting old for you.

Happy, its really not about existential lament, its about not recognizing that you've won. Its over. You got the highest score, you've found all the easter eggs, you've got all the trophies, there's nothing left to learn or prove. You guys don't even realize how far from the mere VF mortals you really are. As for me, I still get a kick out of trying to get Lei Fei to do some of Kwai Chang Cain's moves, Or some of that cool stuff Jet Li did in the Shaolin Temple. Even better yet, if I could get Lei Fei to do any of the moves they do in The Grand Master, I would consider it a well spent day LOL!

 

Baiagu Step + MTEG (even EMTEG) is a lot safer than anything in FS, by a long ways. I think playing people who don't use tech the game gives you, can make it more fun because you aren't dealing with that tech. Nowadays fighting game players are better equipped so the skill ceilings become higher and if you choose not to keep up, you're gonna be at a greater disadvantage, faster, against the player that used what was out there to their advantage.

If the stuff in FS bothers people now, it'd be the same in older VFs as far as the criticisms go, and people did complain back then as well.


Concerning VF6 I hope Sega makes a strong push with the "Virtua" brand in the future, and that Virtua FIGHTER is at the forefront of that. I think being consistent on release schedules is the key here. I can see people being weary of VF6:EVO/R being announced, and wondering if they should spend time with the game. This followed by the aesthetic issue are probably the game's biggest hurdles.

 

I just wanna make it clear. I'm not complaining about FS's system, I like it. But after playing VF4FT for a long set last night I can see why some older players are turned off by it. VF5 series lost the essence of VF2 moreso than VF4 series did. It's still VF but it feels like a different game. That is not a bad thing, it's just an observation. If I wanted to play VF2 or VF4 I'd just play that game. That game already exists. I don't want VF6 to be any previous version of this game, I want VF6 to just be VF6. Give me a new game that's inspired off the VF characters.

People complain about SFIV being a series of the same game getting released over and over again, but want the same for VF. I don't think SEGA should go that route. Keep pushing the boundaries of the game.

 

Masterpo, I am not sure that have attained total mastery in the art of knowing what you know and knowing what you know not.

Likewise, I am not sure that these people who cite the defensive techs from past games were ever really able to pull them off. Hardly any American players did. Plus without lazy throw escape, delayed throws could be used more easily, etc. This is basically something that one would have to have a lot of VF experience to be able to comment on.

The only changes system-wise that are actually good ideas in FS are the counter hit damage on circulars to evaders and the stumble on backdash sidekicks. Even then, back dash is way too useful. I don't really know the best way to weaken it. Less distance, no cancels, or a delay before one can attack... some combination of those.

In FS, how awesome is it when two players backdash way far away from each other, then slowly come back together until they are finally close enough to take turns punching each other in the cock?

 

Just gotta get this in twice



I would like to say that I play my characters pretty uniquely, especially Sarah, but being realistic would mean there's only one style worth playing - the one that'll suit Sarah the best while beating the current opponent.

The argument of an individual's style being robotic is not worth having for any fighting game imo. It's the duty of the character to be unique. Each character has their own effective strategies and one would be a fool not to exploit them, and the opponent would be a fool not to be aware of them. Akira has to find ways to compensate for being so linear. Shun has to find ways to compensate for his early sober game being really poor. Kage has to find ways to compensate for his punishment being so bad. Taka has to find ways compensate for being at nikatu at -5, while the rest of the characters is at -6.

The most important thing is to find a character that suits YOUR style. There's a reason why Rashad Evans needs to stop trying to be a boxer; for a long fabled, revered wrestler, his stand up striking is good, but nowhere near the level of some UFC fighters. He might really feel his boxing, but on a competitive scale, it wont get the job done for him in the octagon.

I really like Sarah and Lion. Lau, Goh and Kage are cool. I can't really play Akira or Aoi too well. I NEEEED to figure out Jacky sometime.

If there were more people from the FGC were interested in VF, if more people knew matchups, max punishments, better setups, we would all view the game much more differently.

So to me, the problem is learning how to adjust one's comfort zone. Some players are content with using only 4-5 moves, and having poor defense. For some, they refuse to leave the glass room they've locked themselves in, and others don't know the way out.

To this day, there are people that complain about how some of the pieces move on a chess board.

 

Actually, its kind-a refreshing to see all this modesty on the topic,

Happy_Friend, Rod, Tricky, Cozby, etc I think I've played (and lost) to all of you at one time or another, at least those of you who drop in to PSN. I have nothing but mad respect for you cats. But you're all VF masters (even if you won't admit it). One way to tell (outside of being destroyed by you) are the things you criticize VF5FS for and the things you like to see in VF6 LOL

Things like "counter hit damage to evaders and the stumble on backdash sidekick" to you just sound like normal fighting game talk right? That's a feature of VF you would like to see continue in VF6 I presume.

But mere mortals we ask for things like where are the ring names in Single Player? how come multi-player doesn't track W/L ratio in non rank modes? How come the weapons that you can attach during customization don't have any straps? (they used to in VF4 LOL) where's Kumite mode? wouldn't it be cool if VF had team battle? Can they make El-Blaze a little larger in VF6? Dural is overpowered and shouldn't be selectable in VF6! Can they add more regulation style Judo gear for Goh in VF6?

Only the true VF masters are even aware of Nikatu at -5 for Taka while everyone else is at -6. I mean it takes a VF master to decipher: " Baiagu Step + MTEG (even EMTEG) is a lot safer than anything in FS, by a long way"

The mere mortals would like to see things like mobile player 2 profiles for two player mode.
So that we can take our customizations and W/L records with us to a friends house.

And I think once you get way up there to VF god status where you guys are, things probably do get a little predictable and boring. Because at that level , VF as a game of chance has been totally excluded. At the VF god level who ever makes the first big mistake, will probably lose because the skill involved is so high that players on both sides are aware of all the advantages, disadvantages, punishable situations, options for escape, and options for surrender. You've seen the peach up close so much until you can draw it with your eyes closed. There's just no more mystery.

I'm not criticizing (I'm really jealous deep down inside) But for contrast my criticisms for VF5FS go along the lines of:

How come AM2 don't allow replay saves in Single Player, I think you can learn from watching yourself play the AI?

How come your license level doesn't display in two player or multi-player mode?

Two player and Single player features in VF are really on the scarce side, for instance how come the system doesn't keep in fight statistics for single player or two player?

What happened to Lei Fei's elbow move from VF4?

What happened to the underground tournaments? Will they be back in VF6? The mirror match, the venus match, etc those were fun...

For ppl who play off line mostly, 2 player, and single player, how come we can't have an offline rank? Can they add offline ranks to VF6?

I'm another one of those suckers that would like to see a story mode, alla Tekken 4-6.

This kind of stuff doesn't mean much to the VF masters, VF theoreticians, VF gods and VF scientists because they don't have anything to do with the fighting engine, and after all isn't that all that matters in a fighting game? Character Balance? and the Fighting engine? everything else is ancillary frills


I kind-a-sort-a think that if the power that be (Sega/AM2) the VF gods, would look at the game a little more from the perspective of mere mortals and the little people, they just might make a VF that was more attractive and more fun and with more replay value to both the VF gods and the VF mortals

 

It just takes looking at the Wiki, google or asking questions to "decipher" anything. VF is one of the easiest games to get into, but people just don't want to. Simple as that.

 

Yes you're right for one group of ppl. But I think VF5FS was pretty successful in terms of sales, or at least it beat Sega's expectation. Last time I looked there were over 100,000 players online in PSN in ranked over 30,000 in point challenge, of course there is some intersection, some duplicate accounts, but when you add Xbox to that, yes there is some intersection and duplicate account there too, but put those two together, and keep in mind that the majority of ppl who bought VF5FS don't play online at all! There are two player die hards or single player folks who for whatever reason don't go online. Yea, VF5FS did well.

But that said, the reasons that the VF gods complain about VF5FS, are entirely different than the reasons that mere mortals have problems with VF! The noob, the casual, the intermediate player is not going to have criticisms relating to escape windows, hit boxes, throw directions Nikatu +/or - advantage vs disadvantage, punishable frames and all of that other fight engine mumbo jumbo. The noob, the casual, the intermediate are going to complain about missing modes in single player, or the VF is too boring, where are the power ups? How come nothing special happens when an attack lands. They're going to compare VF's conservative stages, to the exciting choices they have in TTT2 or DOA5.

Like anything else, the VF community is not monolithic. Some of us get into single player and could give a damn about two player or online. Some of us feel that single player is for the most part a waste of time and the only legitimate mode is 2 player, and they exclude online because of lag. Some of just jump online we don't have anyone to play two player with and you can't get good playing single player, so online reigns supreme. Put in each of those categories noobs, intermediate and advanced players. Add to those players for which VF is their second fighting game, they're really loyal to SC5 or Tekken or DOA or MK etc. You can see its a pretty diverse group.

The ppl that don't play VF simply because they just don't want to put the time in, represents a very small percentage of those who pick the game up.

Feature set wise, TTT2, Tekken 6 pretty much set the standard for fighting games. VF6 should have team battle mode, survival mode, ghost battle mode, and aracade mode as a base line and then license challenges, sparring mode , 2 player, and online. If they were to add a story mode on top of all of this, VF6 would prolly outsell every other fighting game in 2014-2015.

 

VF (and almost every other game) not having offline records drives me crazy. Sure, I only ever play with my little brother anyway, but I'd love to know how many times he's used Lau, or how few times either of us have won with Kage, or whatever.

 

I have basically stated what I think are the design problems with FS that make the game so weak. I would just reiterate that maybe two of the most telling or damning things about the short comings of FS are

1) The game gets less fun, the higher the level of play. I seriously don't relish fights with a lot of the best fighters bc if we are both playing the most strategically wise game, we will be mostly trying to whiff bait each other and taking turns punching each other in the cock.

2) The New York guys are back to playing FT, and I totally envy them.

Masterpo, while I am flattered that you would promote me to VF god status, everything is relative, and the changes that I would suggest are not changes that are designed for advanced players only. In fact, paradoxically, I think that FS is actually the cruelest game when there is a skill difference b/c if you play strict textbook style, you can win without even really have to guess correctly very much.

 

@Zekiel

I will admit that fs didnt get the hype it deserved in the states but lets be honest, most of the games that arent SF, COD, or, Halo don't really get as much shine here anyway. I mean look at GG, BB, and P4A. A;ll great fighters that have seen little to no love in the US. But they treated like gold in japan. Tekken and DOA ar the authority for 3d fighters in the us right now anything outside of that is just like blah. I'll even take it outside of fighters hell Capcoms MH saga hitsharer thenan mike tyson with steel gloves on yet it has close to no following in the states. Great game too, ppl love it in japan they just dont really give a shit here. At the end of the day I think sega knows their game isn't so popular here and uless thaey make it easier for some of these monkey ass knuckle rollers to comprehend its going to continue to be a japan only hit. I mean if you look at the VF community in relation to the other FGC it's pretty small. And thats not even to say that its any better or worse than the bigger ones. All I'm saying is from a business stand point I can see why they are puttin any cookies in the american VF jar. the game is hard and most ppl in this country just dont want to be bothered with anything that doesn't have an easy button so to speak. Tekken has mile high launchers and single input spam juggles. DOA has infinite countering with grab safety on hit stun. SF has projctlile spacing aka fireball spam for safety and ultra attacks hell you see what happened to SC when they tried to buy into the gimmicks. What's VF got? Frame dta , flow charts, positive and negative states, it's some shit you really gotta do your homework on to be any good at. And honestly the average douche bag american is too "COOL" to be a try hard whatever the fuck thats supposed to mean. I personally love VF becase it's something out of the norm. I like the fact that I can't just run into a match mash some shit and get a greasy V off some vet. That to me is bullshit. If you take the time to learn VF it pays off but thats the problem with this game in america. Anywyas im efriggin tired as all hell and I saw this old post and decided to type some crap cuz i was bored and couldn't sleep but now I can. So G'night ppl. I'll atch oyou all next time I am actually on VF XBL

 

Great posts by Happy and Rod on the last 2 pages here.

wait.... why does it say I'm a new member?

 

@Gear Wolfen

It's got more than just flow charts. It has defensive tech you can layer to create option-selects like no other game can which leads to a fast paced back and forth between both players, that is engaging for both players with little down time.

Sega just needs to get that stuff across in an aesthetic package that isn't too jarring. The game isn't hard to learn, but the aesthetic doesn't push most people to learn it as well as other factors.

 

http://dreamcast-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&p=67218

 

@Femto

I think I may have worded my statement improperly. I didn't mean to make it seem as though VF was lacking in the mechanics department. I was merely stating that it doesn't have any of those gimmicky "Training Wheel" mechanics like some of the formentioned games. I am a hardcore K.I fan like no joke I have been actively trolling forums and google searches for years looking for info on a new K.I posting shit asking Devs to pick up the game begging companies to publish all kinds of shit like that. And I know even with the changes they have made with the new K.I being released this fall...well winter, That this game has some crazy gimmicks in it too. I am not saying that having gimmicks is horrible I mean not everyone that plays fighting games is out to be a pro player some people just wanna grab some characters that look interesting to them and play the game. Thats fine, all I am saying is if you make a comparison of VF to any of these games any VF player worth his salt ( stl tm is a name that comes to mind) or even the intermed's will tell you that in comparison to most other 3d fighters ( if not all) this game requires a great deal of study from those who seek god-tier skill levels. And you do make a good point sega does not sell Vf very well. They need someone who is god-tier at this game to go in thre and help them see how to properly promote this game in a way that attracts more new layers tso that these damn lobbies can be filled with the kinda numbers you see in Tekken or DOA servers.

 

@Femto
also, as a side note, when I say "Monkey ass knuckle rollers" I mean the Scumbags of every FGC. Youkno w who they are the guys tht grab thieir modded controllers or PAR hacks and troll you shitless then talk trash like they have accomplished something. Like I said I have no qualms against new players who are okay staying at novice level play or even intermediate. Enjoy the game how you like as long as you are not ruining someone elses fun or purposely griefing them in the process.

 

FGC is overall pretty terrible. just sayin. (VF isolation FTW)