Virtua Fighter 6

Guys, I've big news to announce, I'm working on a 100 pages document about how VF could improve, I've even created a story for it and a lot of things aside of that, in a week or two I will post some news (I'm not trolling)
I'm probably gonna need some help in some parts, if someone wants to help tell me please

 

I read your post and would like to argue these three points.

Even though VF is considered by many to be the most "realistic" fighting game, its competition is sorely lacking in realism, so that's not much of an accomplishment.The problem with taking out juggles and making the battles longer is that they make into something it was never, ever meant to be - not very fun. Just like Virtua Tennis isn't a realistic tennis simulator, Virtua Fighter is NOT a fighting simulator. It's an arcade game. If it valued realism over fun, I wouldn't play it.

 

The game you are describing is UFC 3. It is a Mixed Martial Arts Simulation.

If Sega were to make the changes you suggest: removing juggles, floaters, adding stamina, blood, and extending the matches , and more realism, you would have the game UFC 3. Which is a great combat simulator as far as I'm concerned.

But the old, and older VF fans like floaters, juggling, and combos. Without those the game wouldn't be virtua fighter. VF fans like a certain degree of realism, but they don't want a simulator. They want to be able to bounce fighters off walls, launch them into the air, and float them with 3 or 4 addition attacks. Most VF fans live for that LOL.

 

Remove juggling and you'll just have to replace it with multiple stuns or shitloads damage 1 hitters. Juggles are good, juggles are fun, juggles are all around.
Not to bash, but anyone bashing juggles in any fighting game hasn't probably quite grasped what they are about (not to imply they are all about juggling).

I haven't written here for a while but I think the best way to go on about throw escapes would be to bring back the old throw directions and MTE's but make it 2 escapes max. Keep lazy TE for 1 escape in.

What are we achieving with this: Throw breaks are still more of a gamble but characters with more throw directions get a better change of landing one (33/33/33 like it is now for 6 direction grapplers). If doing DTE and holding lazy TE for the second input you'll get one escape like currently if they throw you later. However with more throw directions the possibility of escaping it with a lazy TE are watered down more.

Also, with 2 escapes max it's still relatively user friendly. You're not breaking your wrist buffering TEs in allnighters and it also takes away the possibility that a technically good player can just TE every single one of your throws buffered in every evade. So at least theoretically it's keeping in the old mind game of escaping the situationally worst throws first while being able to deal with any of the rest.

Would give a buff to the old more throw directions characters, would give more of a mindgame and some more technical aspect back to throw escaping while probably still keeping the current feel for it mostly intact.

 

My point is not to value realism over fun. My point is to have both. Perhaps a good way to describe it more clearly is to have a balance of both. Basically, make it as realistic as possible while maintaining the fun factor and all the good rest that the VF series is known for (such as speed of battle moves). Of course, I therefore think that "juggling" should be removed, implying that "juggling" is not of the category "good rest". Juggling still looks out of place and simply is out of place. It is the developers' and designer's job to accomplish this for VF, if it is to evolve and improve.

Simultaneously, we know (or at least reasonably assume) that they will keep releasing new versions of VF for a long time to come. Why not have this sort of improvement? Perhaps, if you want to keep the things like juggling, maybe they should put in the option to choose between the game modes of 'Old' and 'New', where 'Old' is the typical game we know now, and 'New' is the mode more towards the realism proposed (where the essence of VF is maintained). For controls, I think this shouldn't matter much or shouldn't be a problem.

By the way, am I correct that you did not address the dynamics question? I too think that, while the series is fun, it should really look more dynamic even if the gameplay is essentially the same. More fluency in how characters move is desirable.

I don't see how some blood and sweat should be kept out. Even if gameplay stays the same, the visual effect may be better and more immersive for players.

In regard to fatigue, I don't see a problem either. It should not go to the extent that it breaks fun and good gameplay. Just a little bit of slowdown, not too much like UFC or reality itself. Make it so that you can detect that characters are getting fatigued, even if little. It brings some more immersion.
In fact, some realism may even be fun. It is not as if realism is necessarily contradicting fun. Am I correct that you think that realism automatically necessarily entails no (or less) fun?

In regard to battle length, maybe this could fall under the 'Old' and 'New' matter. Perhaps even have options to choose specifically in regard to different elements of the game (pretty simple as choosing how you want the CPU to act in training mode).

 

No, it would not be that. It would still be VF. It would be VF adapted not so far as UFC. I think I hit some of the points in my previous post to Oneida. VF would still retain its character roster (and have added new characters), it would still maintain its tight controls, its speed, etc.

I also don't want a true simulator, as I have already described. I want a proper balance without ridiculousness. This entails the removal of juggling.

 

I don't see why you should then put in multiple stuns or so-called single power strikes. It's as if one simply goes from a point, assumed as if it's somehow necessary, of "We must have something that does high damage, so either juggling or some other form to produce high damage". Why? I'm just wondering.
I don't think I would describe the liking of juggles as "That they are fun". I would rather put it in this manner: that there are people who personally like them or find them fun. And there are those who don't. I also don't understand why they are supposedly good, or is it that you personally find them good?
I can certainly see what juggles are about. Maybe I don't and I don't know it. If so, perhaps you can explain that to me. Even if I can use them, as i wrote, I wouldn't want to use them on some poor sap. Not even if I were a superior professional VF player, would I want to use it on another expert. (In case you're wondering... No, I'm not a superior VF expert as far as I know, but that's irrelevant.)

Sure, a game may have elements to make it fun. However, the ridiculousness of juggles, even if they are fun to some, is terribly out of place. To be honest, whether I like it or not is perhaps not even the point so much or not at all. The point I'm making in regard to the matter is that juggling simply is out of place.

I hope we may have good discussion as thinkers here, by the way, whatever we may think

 

Mate, I've got to come in here and say that I totally see where you are coming from and I think I am coming from the same place. I would love to see one of the big fighting game series totally revolutionise the genre in the way you described by freeing themselves of some of the conventions that we have got stuck with over the years and also embracing some new concepts to freshen things up. The idea of a 3D fighting game has been much the same for quite a few hardware gens now. I mean really what has changed? The last fresh, exciting thing I can remember coming in was DOA with the whole parry thing back in the day. But that was a revolution that lost its way.

I tend to alternate between liking juggles and hating them. But right now I think they should be done away with. I like the interaction of the strikes, guards and throws in VF. That's the cool part. Getting juggled with no opportunity to break out of it is not that fun. Especially moves like Pai's 4 where she basically hits you with her fingertips and you go flying through the air. It's a joke. I still use the move but I don't like it. I would like to see a heavy move knock someone down heavy. Maybe even have some spin on them, or stagger away stunned but not flying through the air.

BUT there is a limit to how much we can expect Sega to change VF while still remaining VF. These concepts might best be explored in a new game to be honest because the outrage from the player community might be pretty crazy.

The stamina stuff is also something I would like to see included but I think that goes under the above.

Some damage modeling I think would be great with some sweat and dirt. This I feel should be the bare minimum we should expect. The idea of these fighting characters going through the whole bout like an indestructible doll is pretty archaic.

The big one for me it BLOCKING ANIMATION which again you mentioned. This is purely an aesthetic thing but it is one thing they could do which would have a HUGE impact on how the game looks in motion. There are already hints of it in VF, moreso than other fighting games but we need to go all the way. It shouldn't affect frames or anything but instead of the character just holding a static block animation for all moves they should block the different moves with small unique animation for different moves types. Martial arts have many different blocks just as they have many strikes and throws. That should be reflected.

 

@Jermain and @IVORB

I repeat, the fighting game you are both talking about is UFC 3 the Mixed Martial Arts 3D fighting game. It does represent the state of the art in fighting games. It does not bring any of the baggage of 2 decade old fighters.

I love VF, but its a dinosaur, along with Tekken, DOA,. SF, MK, etc. The first versions of these games came out almost 20 years ago. And outside of graphics, the fight engines and gameplay have not changed very much. VF had to put launchers, and floaters into the original game, because all fighting games had them back then, VF was already an odd ball because of its realistic look, if it had no floaters/juggling it would have probably been rejected in the early 90's.

If you remove juggles and launchers from VF you would immediate slow the game play down (the speed that you're talking about would be gone) You would have to replace those juggles and launchers with different animations. As soon as you do that VF would start to look very much like UFC.

EA Sport's MMA, and THQ's Undisputed 2009/2010 and UFC 3 represent the new generation of martial arts virtual combat in gaming. The fighting physics, damage taken, blood, stamina all give the sense of a real fight. In those games you can actually knock your opponent out , or make them tap out, or do so much damage that the referee has to stop the fight. They have Karate, Judo, Muay Thai, Savate, Brazilian JuJitsu,Kick Boxing, Boxing, and Wrestling styles.

I've noticed that newer players want VF to be more realistic (i.e. drop the juggles/launchers)
the old school players grew up on the juggles/launchers (that's all they know LOL )

@Jermain and IVORB it would be easier to get EA Sports to add more fighting styles to the next Mixed Martial Arts game they release than to get SEGA/AM2 to take out juggling/launchers and the combo system.

My serious recommendation to both you cats, if you want a releastic martial arts experience in a video game (to the extent that is possible) then pick up UFC 3. And play VF for what it is, a nostalgic 2 decades old arcade fantasy fighter that requires considerable skill to be top tier.

 

I'm gonna check it out but I wonder if perhaps these MMA games are a bit too realistic. They seem like the opposite extreme from the arcade fighters. I don't really want a complete simulation, just more realistic elements in the arcade fighter. I still want the crazy over-the-top action but just a bit more grounded in reality. Not sure going all the way to the opposite extreme is the answer.

 

What you're saying is that you want it both ways. VF does feature crazy over-the-top action and it is the most realistic arcade fighter on the planet. But that is exactly VF's dilemma!
It's too reallistic for the fans that really like arcade fantsy fighters, and its not realistic enough for the people who like martial arts combat simulators. That's why the VF community is the size that it is.

To make matters worse you and Jermain would like to make it just a little more realistic by dropping juggles/launchers! That would push VF even further from the fans of arcade fantasy fighting , it might attract some fighter from the martial art combat simulation group, but here is what you would run into: The first time combat simulation fans saw Jeffrey snap a fighter's back on his knee and it didn't result in an immediate knock out there would be a large hissing sound. Or the first time Vanessa Twisted and broke some fighter's neck and it didn't result in an immediate 'Fight OVER' the combat simulation fans would holler 'BOO'

The problem with VF is , that it was introduced way before its time. At the time Virtua Fighter was first introduced it was the most realistic fighter on the market. The snag was that all the other arcade fighters alla Street Fighter, had this concept called juggles/combos/floaters .
SEGA/AM2 had to include this concept because all the fighters in that day and time had them. Now, if SEGA/AM2 was to release VF for the first time with today's technology I'm willing to bet the ranch that Virtua Fighter would look very much like the Mixed Martial Arts games, (I'm almost certain there would be no floating/juggling or even combos for that matter) because Yu Suzuki originally envisioned a martial arts combat simulator, and in fact thats who the original advertising referred to VF. I have very little doubt that if VF were introduced for the first time today, that it would look different from UFC 3. Different stages, yes, with the addition of Kung Fu (probably) but it would definitely have a MMA feel to it, because that's exactly what they tried to do in the early 90's but the technology simply was not there yet.

I play both! I love me some VF. There is a great deal of style and finesse in mid to high level VF play. But you get a totally different feeling when playing MMA games. in high level MMA game you feel like you've been in a martia arts fight (not a chess match) MMA fights are more visceral, knock-outs feel like knock-outs, If you get your ass kicked, you really know you were beat down. That's different than being out comboed! You run up against a combo master in VF and that's it. He will launch you, and then float you until its either over or close to being over, and from then on you can't make any mistakes! In VF you never hurt your opponent! no matter how much damage you deal out, your opponent jumps right back up as fresh as if the fight had just started (sure life bar has gone down but...) In the MMA games your strikes, kicks, throws, begin to take a toll on your opponent. You can knock an opponent out with a single well placed kick to the head, or cause so much damage to the opponent that the referee rushes in to stop the fight.

Also the more you learn in a MMA game, the more you know about real martial arts. When and how to use Judo, Kick boxing, Guillotines, Arm-bars, upper cuts etc. Sure it won't make you a mixed martial artist, but you do learn more about the real martial arts., and the fighting styles involved. The more you learn about VF (is the more you know about VF, in particular what ever version of VF you are learning) There is no real world counter part to juggling/floating and combos ergo VF the arcade Fantasy Fighter. My fighter in UFC uses a combination of Karate, Muay Thai, and Judo. The more I know about these actual martial arts, the better I am in the game! Also the more I can appreciate real martial arts matches and the sport.

To me Virtua Fighter and UF are complements of each other. When I want the sense that I'm in a Donnie Yen, Jet Li, Kung Fu Flick then I break out Virtua Fighter. On the other hand if I want the sense of really kicking some ass there is no other choice but UFC 3 or FNC (boxing)

@IVORB and Jermaine, because of how marketing works, there is no middle ground, you either have a full -blown-over-the-top arcade fantasy fighting game or you have a realistic martial arts combat simulator. if you make something in the middle you have VF and both of you would like to change it.

 

You sure about this Po? I can think of a lot of reasons as to why the VF community is so small but you seem damn sure about that one problem being the sole issue :/

/me checks his own signature

 

have a run a international formal survey? Nope! But I do have so many testimonials (so to speak) from real life ppl who have tried VF and then put it down, that I honest to god cannot count them. Even from this newest release VF5FS when it first came out, my friends list blew up with all types of VF newbies about 7/8 of them are gone now. I go out of my way to find out why they dropped its always the same few answers: From one group I get its not as fun as fighter X, because it doesn't have (x,y,z,etc) let x=fireballs, y=powerups,z = special/secret moves, etc Or from ppl that were expecting a FNC or MMA type game they didn't like that the characters had infinite stamina, or never took any physical damage, could be floated etc. The market for a good arcade fighter is between 2 and 4 million copies The market for a good fighting combat simulator is roughly the same between 3 and 6 million. VF is high enough quality, and with its latest release it had the necessary exposure, it just doesn't fit either market

 

I don't care about the sweat and blood stuff. I would not object if it were added, and I would not care if it were absent from VF6. It is not important to me. Similarly, the idea of dynamics doesn't bother me, if I understand what you mean (do the same move twice, it looks a little different each time but is recognizably the same move?)

But things that "don't make sense" like juggling should stay. I don't agree that they are out of place - it's a video game. Should lifebars be removed because we don't have lifebars in real life? Should Taka have more health than Eileen because that is more realistic?

 

Yes, VF is 20 years old, but we all have to agree that from all the developers, only AM2 is trying to evolve the core mechanics of the game so succesfully. Many of your ideas are quite interesting on paper, but I'm not sure if they can be applied to the VF gameplay.

I want VF6 to be VF and to give me a reason not to play FS again, just like FS did for Vanilla (for me, at least). Make it an eye-candy, but don't change the fundamentals. Othewise, it would be a new IP.

 

I'm not entirely sure what can really be added to VF at this point in terms of game play mechanics without out adding more bars (stamina, meter, etc.), or fundamentally altering a lot of the core system. It's a system that's been refined over 20 years so the positive is that many of it's issues have been resolved but the downside is that after 20 years of layering new complexities onto this system, it's really hard to add anything that doesn't mess things up to a certain extent.

If anything I would want a fully balanced VF cast and for any and all issues to be hammered out. FS is a good game, but I want a great game! That means no tiers, excellent animation and all the tools necessary to improve the VF experience. A couple of new characters, copious stat tracking and moving VF from just a game to an entire experience will be the best thing for VF6 that is actually reasonable.

 

VF5FS feels fantastic as is. And frankly, I'm not sure if anything new aside from a new character or two could even be added without messing up the core game. What I DO want however is for the team to start incorporating the story of the series into the game via arcade prologues, rival cutscenes, and ending segments. Or a separate campaign providing a full on single player experience along the lines of Project Berkley (prototype Shenmue) or something like Tekken Force. The fighters have really awesome backstories and it would be refreshing if they weren't limited to manuals hardly anyone would bother reading

 

There's a lot they can add to the game just in terms of core mechanics that could change the game dramatically.

Just look at the changes to the side turned mechanics in FS, it was only a minor adjustment of what was already present in the game but it changed the game dramatically.

There's a lot of fluff that people are bring up in this thread that just seems out right unnecessary. VF has the ability to gain a large fanbase right now as it is, a lack of support from SEGA over many years and also a lack of support from the players themselves is what landed us where we are today imo.

 

The best possible thing that Sega can do for VF at this point is to cater to and nurture the global community of the VFers.

VF will always be an arcade game, period. And that's fine....if you live in an area where arcades still exist. For the large majority of Westerners that's no longer the case. VF needs to have a global community that can easily share information and experiences with each other.

It sucks for Sega to release the game for 2/3 years in Japan all the while ignoring the rest of the world. Only to throw us a bone when we start bitching loud enough. I know there are complex business reasons behind all of that, but it still sucks.

VF needs the tools to build an online community. Namco and Capcom have figured this out. Soul Calibur, Tekken, and Street Fighter makes it extremely easy to upload/download replays of your favorite character or player. Each game has periodic online tournies or atleast the tools to create online tournies with other players. Etc etc etc etc...

That's what VF needs right now. The community around the game is passionate, but small. We need a game that will allow us to reach other fans and recruit new ones. The best VF games can be played offline, but until air travel is free, most of us will be online warriors for a long time.

What VF6 (console version) needs:
-Online Quest Mode
-Online tournies or the tools to create online tournies
-Online lobbies where players can just chill, mingle, challenge each other, etc
-A robust online replay system that will allow players to upload, find, and organize their favorite fights or other players.

VF is a great game. It needs a few niptucks here and there, but overall it's awesome. What we need now is a way for the community to thrive. A game that allows us to communicate easily with each other is the best way for that to happen.