Virtua Fighter 5 Playstation 3 Version

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

Whatever... You know, I do regret not getting a chance to play those guys offline with my Lei Fang. I know I would've been on even ground with them, even if you don't seem to think so.

Yup that's absolutely right. I wasn't in the right place at the right time to take down the top players. By the time I was good enough to take them on, they'd moved on, and they had no interest in taking on new challengers in DOAU. It doesn't matter how good those guys actually were, or how good I was. Their reputation had outgrown their skill. Even if I were to beat them now, all people would say is how those guys were much better when they played regularly.

Ditto. You didn't see the fights I fought, or fight me yourself, so don't make assumptions about who I can or can't beat.

I never said I was the best. In fact, despite the fact I won the #1 Lei Fang spot in the final ranking tourney, there was someone else who I player with called Norsk Ninja who also played Lei Fang who was damn near as good as I was. Despite out entirely different styles, we were so evenly matched we agreed between us that we were perpetually tied for #1 Lei Fang. I didn't mention this earlier because that was never made official, but I would never claim that my Lei Fang was superier to Norsk Ninja's. There were quite a few other players I lost to regularely as well.. But those were just casual matches, and I never fight completely seriously in a casual match. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

At the height of my skill there were too few online players left I could even fight seriously without getting bored, which was the main reason I quit. Although that wasn't partly due to the drain of people moving to DOA4, at the time I was confident, and I still am confident, that the level I reached with Lei Fang was high enough to take even the best players evenly. And if anyone wants to prove me wrong, then bring it. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif I'd be happy to get back in shape at Lei Fang to take on a real challenger.

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

I agree with most of what you've said, and our ability to settle differences in VF is a testament to the quality of the VF game. Because of its depth we can map physical and mental skills to virtual skills in VF. While DOA and Tekken offer some level of this, the VF series excels. When our VF matches are done, the disciples, fighters, and masters have truly been exercised, and it is not necessary to escalate matters to tangible injury. In terms of letters of challenge,

First, I am of low rank in our dojo and don't have the authority to accept a letter of challenge.

Second, chi-quanshu only accepts 2 letters of challenge a year. They've already executed one, I do not know whether the 2nd have been accepted or if it will be this year because of the upcoming training we will do in VF5.

We will have more than enough opportunity to meet and spar at some time in the future. chi-quanshu is not going anywhere.

Truth is what we seek. Is not truth found in knowledge of self?

The way of life is as a stream. A man floats, and his way is smooth. The same man turning to fight upstream exhausts himself. To be one with the universe each must find his true path and follow it. The river seeks its own level. It will not fight the rock, it flows around it. The rock becomes a refuge in the river, and what of fury? It is resolved.

Griever, recognize that all words are part false and part truth. Limited by our imperfect understanding. But strive always for honesty within yourself.

This is our way, and in time we will meet.

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

When I use to play doa online, I've beaten Tom and Offbeat and who hasn't beaten those two and who cares? Lag was always in the way in those matches and never counted as something important of no matter who I played against. Glancing at your previous post about how Offbeat is a lag abuser, he lives in Canada. You aren't going to get a good connection. No one can't bring their full offline game online. The new challengers that you speak of are full of themselves that think that online is equal to offline. Those new challengers I've seen brags about how they beat known players in 1 or 2 seeded connections. Those new challengers that you speak of are a joke. Online is just an excuse for those who are too lazy to travel and I've seen enough of them rant on and on how they accomplish so much in lag to buffer their S and SS rankings. I even seen the same people who talk about how even they are against known players online loses consistantly offline when they finally go to a tournament. If you want to be taken seriously by those two or anyone else for that matter, challenge them offline. Don't take this as a flame post. It's not.

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

Well, I would be willing to take on a challenger offline, but as my time and finincial resources are limited, it would have to be to someplace I could drive to and back from within a weekend, so for the most part it just isn't possible. Honestly, I don't think there are many people who would go that far just to take on a single challenger.

Going to a major tournement where a lot of people worth fighting would all be in the same place would be another thing though. That's something I would do, but I'm not aware of any tournaments that still offer DOAU competitions. Even if they did, I sincerely doubt they would be able to get many decent players to come at this point. Hence, why I'm strongly considering getting into the VF5 scene after the game comes out on the 360. It's either that or Tekken... Tekken probably will have an online mode, but IMO VF is the superior game, and I'd much rather be playing it.

Regarding the your attitude on the current DOAU players, I'd like to remind you that skill online almost always equates to skill offline. At least in DOA I've found that to be true. Although I've never competed with a really excellent DOA player offline, playing my friends has giving me a pretty good idea of what the difference is. It's an adjustment, but it's really not that difficult of one. The only difference between online and offline worth noting is the inconsistancy of the results online. Sure blocking and countering and a few other things are easier offline, but as with most online factors, the lag effects both players equally. I've never in my life heard of a player who was good online and sucked offline. Not even once. Sure there are people who are cheap online and get wins by exploiting lag tactics, but those people are easy to spot and they are not players I would consider good to begin with.

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

My original point was that if I had to choose
between Real AI and online game play, I would take the "real AI".

If you want to know what I mean by real AI please look at the earlier posts in this thread.

With this in mind, a "perfect ai" can be beat. Because a "perfect ai" is one that is indistinguishable from a human opponent. I hope you do take a look at the earlier discussion of AI. There is a vast difference between the usage of AI as it is now implemented in gaming and the real AI that I'm referring to.

If a VF AI fighter could pass a 'Turing Test' please google if
'Turing Test' is unfamiliar; then the AI could pass for a human opponent. In a blind test (for instance online) the human player would not know that the opponent was AI. This is the true meaning of "perfect AI" A perfect AI would be a good or bad as a human player not worse, and not better.


We are confusing the idea of a computer opponent with a perfect AI opponent. My fellow Vfers,

All AI opponents are computer opponents, but not all computer opponents rise to the level of AI. Simulation is not synonmous with artificial intelligence. Computer opponents can be created and have been created and there is either no AI involved or so very little that the term AI is not very relevant.

The point that I originally wanted to raise was rather than brow beating Sega to give us online play, that perhaps asking for real
AI (or better AI) would be a more realistic request. Because that (might be more consistent) with the VF scene in Japan than online game play would be.

All of the comments about not being able to beat a perfect AI are well intentioned but a somewhat misinformed. While a perfect computer opponent would beat you every time or at least create a draw, an real AI opponent would sometimes win, sometimes lose. A real AI opponent's skills could improve over time or degrade over time (if its not been fighting)

My only challenge to those that would disagree with me, is to take a little time out and check two sources(wikipedia.org, google.com) for the follwing terms:

affective computing
genetic algorithms
swarm intelligence
artificial intelligence
bayesian reasoning
stochastic programming
non deterministic programming
rational agents

I know some of you feel like you're experts on game AI, but even experts can learn something new. Please check out the above terms, imagine them in VF space.

Prior to the PS3 the game console hardware did not have enough power, storage, or speed to realistically attempt to implement these ideas. Now that we have the PS3 (it is for all intentional purposes a super computer) the AI can be dramatically improved.

My argument is, that I would prefer this AI over online game play anyday and if you really, really are honest with yourselves you would too.

This kind of AI would be the preference and online gameplay would be somekind of casual thing that you could take or leave.

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

indeed. that wraps it up.

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

Dude, you are another online "I beat so and so online so blah blah blah" player. You're half the reason why the DoA community sucks, sorry to say.

Tom Brady played tournaments YEARS AGO when DoA2 arcade was out, which btw is much much better than the very bad port DoA2U. 2U has stupidly rediculess stage damage, no jumping, change move properties, frames, tengu was broken, etc. Trying to take away what Tom Brady has accomplished in Doa2 just cause you beat him in a laggy match on a bad port of DoA2 doesn't mean a damn thing.

Offbeat Ninja HAS traveled, which is completely different from you. He went to WCG this year, EVO finals, WCG Canada, and DoW. Where were you? He proved he was the best Ein player in DoAU and DoA4, and of course you beat him before he was good cause that was before Tom Brady taught Offbeat real Ein play. That's like saying I beat Master when he was playing kasumi before he choose Hayabusa. Get out of here.

And offline DOES NOT equal online, even for a shallow game like Doa2U/Doa4. Biggest examples is THE BEST DoA4 player current, Perfect Legend. PL loses all the time online, but if you play him offline 95% chance you're gonna get destroyed. The only one who EVER beat PL was Black Mamba and guess what, Mamba loses all the time online too, but you play him offline, same thing as PL. And BOTH of these players will tell you the truth about offline and online. Online play sucks, nuff said.

Sorry to say but if you REALLY enjoy a game than you'll travel for it or work to build your own scene. This in the end is the choice the competitive gamer needs to make. The DoA Commmunity fails because everyone in it is trying to dodge the above. They don't want travel cause they have online play, and they don't want to work to make their own scene. Hence why even super hyped tournaments like EVO, DID, and DoW bring pathetic numbers.

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

Ah, Setsuna_Goh,

What is cowardice? But the body's knowledge of its own weakness. What is bravery? But the body's wisdom of its own strength. The coward and the hero march together within every man. So to call one man coward or another brave, merely serves to indicate the possibilities of their achieving the opposite.

Those who speak convincingly of peace, cannot go armed. Those who speak convincingly of peace, must not be weak. So, at dojo chi-quanshu make every finger a dagger, every arm a spear, and every open hand an ax or sword.

Training in the martial arts is for spritual reinforcement. VF allows us to achieve this if we walk the road in humility and listen closely to the footsteps of those who have gone before us.

Challenge yourself first to uncover your weaknesses that are hidden to you but so obvious to others, then come a talk to us about challenges.

perhaps then we would acommodate you...

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

Masterpo, why does your dojo only accept two letters of challenge per year? Will that policy change during the VF5 era? Do you live near columbus? If so, then once again my suggestion is for you to accept Maddy's challenge. I'm curious to learn more about this "Darth Kage" player and become enlightened by his teachings. Hard to believe that such a player of unmatched skill has never been heard from in the U.S. scene or on VFDC, or Japan, or Korea, or.......well, you get the idea.

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

WUT SI COWARDIEC??!?!?? BUT DA BODYS KNOWLEDGE OF ITS OWN WEAKNAS!!11!1!!! OMG LOL WUT SI BRAEVRY?!?!!???! OMG WTF BUT DA BODYS WISDOM OF ITS OWN STRANGTH!11!1!11 WTF LOL DA COWARD AND TEH HARO MARCH 2G3THAR WITHIN EVARY MAN!!1!11! WTF LOL SO 2 CAL ONA MAN COWARD OR ANOTHER BRAEV M3R3LEY SERVES 2 INDICAET TEH POSIBILITEIS OF THEYRE ACHEIVNG TEH OPOSIET

THOSA!!!1! OMG LOL WHO SPAAK CONVINCNGLEY OF P3AEC CANOT GO ARMAD!!!!!!!1 WTF THOSE WHO SPAAK CONVINCNGLEY OF PEAEC MUST NOT B WEAK!!1!!1!11 OMG LOL SO AT DOJO CHI-QUANSHU MAEK EVARY FNGAR A DAGAR EV3RY ARM A SPEAR AND EVERY OPEN HAND AN AX OR SWORD

TRANENG!11!!11! WTF IN DA MARTIAL ARTS SI FOR SPRITUAL R3INFORC3MENT!1!1!1! WTF LOL VF ALOWS US 2 ACHEIVA THES IF W3 WOK DA ROAD IN HUMILITY AND LIST3N CLOSELEY 2 TEH FOTST3PS OF THOSA WHO HAEV GONA BFORE US

CHALENGA!!!!! U FIRST 2 UNCOVER UR WAAKNES3S TAHT R HIDEN 2 U BUT SO OBVIOS 2 OTH3RS TH3N COME A TOK 2 US ABOUT CHALANGES

P3RHAPS!!1!1!! WTF THEN W3 WUD ACOMODAET U!!1!1!!1111!1!!!1!11!11 LOL

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

The members of our dojo are spread geographically,

It takes effort to get together to train ,to spar, to advance VF wushu,

It takes effort to get together to answer challenges,

for some passports are required. Two challenges a year
are all that we have time for. And if you've kept up with this thread then you will know that for us a challenge in VF is related to some real matter that needs to be settled. I have in the past been lackadasical about by use of the word tournament and consequently some folks in this thread misunderstood how we use the word.

What most you refer to a tournament for us is really sparring, when we have tournaments the stakes are higher than most people in this thread are willing to risk.

At some point (this summer 2007) we will have a sparring event in Ohio, I will make it a point to invite maddy. We have talked about it in the past. When the time came last year, I'd simply forgot to invite. I will not make that mistake twice.

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

Damn, I thought masterpo double-posted lol oops

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

masterpo, if you really do know about AI, you would understand that complex AI's are simply not cost effective for devices like game consoles.

Game AI especially, are really simple and generic in nature, due to the limited resources that you get with most game systems. Sure, if you have an ascii art VF on PS3, you can do more complex AI's; but the reality is that real world doesn't give you unlimited resources. Any monkey should know this let alone an self proclaimed expert in AI.



And where are those clips that you promised for the past challenges that you claimed to have taken place? Who challenged you? Name the challengers.

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

Sometimes it is good to expect the unexpected and shun the obvious.

double posting is often for the fearful of heart.

When the heart knows no danger, no danger exists. When the soul becomes the warrior, all fear melts, as the snowflak that falls on the warm skin.

Those who surrender themselves, find inner strength.

Darth Kage is real
sugi_pai_chan is real
The alchemist is real
TigerNearDragonFar is real
The last monk is real
Death Angel is real
Emperor Qin is real
MercyEndsHere is real
WhoWantsPie is real
KwaiChang2.0 is real
Yin4Yang is real

I've never checked to see whether they are members of VFDC or whether they've posted or not. But they are all members
of chi-quanshu. Some are masters, some are disciples, but all make formidable foes.

We have all learned from defeat and likewise have all been humbled by victory. Every member of chi-quanshu has lost more than 2500 fights. There is a lot to be learned with loss.
I have lost more than 3000 fights.

If we meet and we fight I may very well loose, but you
will definitely be thoroughly exercised.

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

You're missing the point. I don't really care if people think I'm a great player or not. All I'm really saying is that a lot of the people who were considered the "best" at DOAU were not considered so based on actual skill, but rather based on presence in the community and reputation. I don't think you understand my attitude at all. I absolutely hate fighting people worse than me. I don't understand people at all who just go into rooms online, beat up scrubs, and leave when a good played arrives (in other words, pretty much everyone on DOA4 who is an SS rank). In DOAU, my win rate was only 60%. That's not because I wasn't good, it's because I didn't waste my time fighting people I could easily beat.

Being better than another player is not my goal, my goal is to fight opponents with real skill who challenge my abilities. As such, I can clearly tell from experience when I'm up against someone who meets that criteria. I never got that impression from DOAU Master, Offbeat Ninja, or Tom Brady. Out of those players, the only one who beat me reliably was Offbeat Ninja, and the matches I had with him were, as I said earlier, greatly influenced by lag. Aditionally, he never met my Lei Fang, as at time I was an Ayane player. My skill level since those days has greatly increased, I can't say the same for his. The other two I had limited experience with, but despite the fact I never fought either of them with the final form of my Lei Fang, I was fairly evenly with both of them. They were just not the DOA gods people give them credit for. I personally know several other players online who I respect more than any of those guys and would rather see recognised as among the best DOAU players.

I'm not trying to take away anything. If he was considered good back in DOA2's arcade days then fine, I'll give him credit where credit is due. But in all the experince I had with him he did not strike me as a horribly impressive player, which leads me to question whether it was really him that was good, or the fact he didn't have any real competition back then. I don't know, that's just speculation on my part. How would you explain the fact he failed to compete online when all of the other good players managed to? I'm telling you, despite online's flaws, good players still produce wins more often than not.

Lol, just for the record I have beat Master when he was playing Hayabusa. I won about 3 of the 8 matches we played IIRC, which considering the immature state of my Lei Fang at the time isn't really too bad. But ok, as I've already explained, I would travel for a DOAU tournament if there was one, and if it could deliver some real competition. There were actually a few I was planning to participate in that I missed due to bad timing and unfourtunate coincidences. Additionally, as I said, by the time I perfected my Lei Fang the DOAU tounament scene was already dead. And don't criticise me for taking so long to master her either, because I developed my style for her in only about 3 months. I just picked her up late on to begin with. And might I add, my Lei Fang was original, and not just a carbon copy of someone else's style.

Well in DOA4 that doesn't really suprise me. For some reason they decided to change the code to compensate for lag in DOA4, and the net result was that it became even less reliable than DOAU. Ask anyone, and they'll tell you lag is much harder to deal with in DOA4. That's yet another reason I consider that game garbage. Well, then again, DOA4 handles extreme lag a bit better (at least you don't get any dropped input frames) but you can't have a real match in extreme lag either way.

As I said, I would tavel for a DOAU tournament if there were any, and if other players were going to come that were as good as me or better. As long as I don't have to fight garbage players the whole time and walk away unsatisfied. And in fact, if I can build a decent level of skill in VF5, I will almost certainly travel for that game. I just still have my doubts about whether that will be possible with no one to practice with and no online tools to help me perfect my style.

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

OMG... what the hell.....


Dude I can sum up your post in an example in a different community.

Let's say some dude went on XBL Hyper Street Fighter 2, and played the legendary jeff schaffer. He beats 3 games out of 8 against the Jeff himself in laggy inconsistent online play. Next day he posts on SRK.com that he is the best SF2 player ever.

Now let's review:

#1 They played ONLINE from the comfort of their couch
#2 They played ONLINE from a laggy inconsistent format
#3 They played Hyper Street Fighter 2, which is a really sketchy game if your playing Street Fighter 2, the best option would be Supter Street Fighter 2 Turbo.

Anyone and Everyone on SRK.com would flame this idiot and call him a scrub, if he ever showed up to a tournament, he would be raped and humiliated.

Now let's compare this to you:

#1 You play ONLINE from the comfort of your couch
#2 You play ONLINE in a laggy inconsistent format
#3 You play DoA2 Ultimate, a very crappy version of DoA2, which even then DoA2 is no where near as a good as DoA3.

If you can't see what I'm seeing I'm afraid you're blind. You can pout all you want about your 3 wins against Master online and how you have a better Lei Feng now, since nobody plays. I can play SC2 and pout how I have the best Xianghua ever and would have own3d everyone back in the days since I would people 24/7 at my local bowling alley. It still means jackshit, see?

And what's fear of traveling? What you need to be god at VF in order to have the right to travel? So what if you suck, nobody here really cares, in fact this site is probably the nicest site you'll get for newbies. You've been pampered by that shitty game DoA2U and online play that now all of a sudden you need to be god to even consider traveling? How about walking out of your house and looking for players in Minnesota? Or are you not good enough for that either?

I freaking suck and hate DoA4 and I still went to EVO finals for the game. Not everyone who traveled to EVO expected to get far, the first person I played in DoA was some lady from the Midwest, she lost right away. Does that suck? Yes. Did she have fun though? she sure did. So get out of here with this "I need online play or else I won't travel". Traveling to a tournament isn't ALL about winning, it's for the experience too. Of course you wouldn't know that SINCE YOU'VE NEVER BEEN TO ONE.

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

Ok, stop right there. So if Offbeat Ninja or DOAU Master are good at DOA2U then you have nothing but praise, but if I'm good at it then it is nothing but a crappy version of DOA2? Seriously, if the game is crap, then why do you care so much about me questioning people's ability in it?

More importantly, I do not base my assertion of my own abilities on how many times I won, but rather my impression of skill based on how well my opponents fought. If I had lost every one of those matches my impression would not have changed. I thought the fact I actually have beaten those players in the past might give me a little credibility, but heaven forbid I ever question the skill of the almighty DOAU Master and Offbeat Ninja. Of course I could only have beaten them by luck, and not because I possessed a level of skill that was beginning to approach theirs. How could it be otherwise?

You know I didn't bring this up in the first place. You were the one who threw a fit just because of my suggestion that Offbeat Ninja, DOAU Master, and Tom Brady weren't the three greatest DOA players in history, or that I may have a level of skill remotely approaching theirs.

All I said is I wouldn't travel a larger distance than I could make it there and back from in a weekend unless it was for a big event where I knew I could be competitive. Are you even reading what I'm posting here?

One thing I have learned from playing online though, the pool of skill available to compete with inside a reasonable area from where one lives is nothing compared to the talented players you will meet with online. I don't care what criticism you have of online play, because without online play I could've never played with so many players of high level caliber on a daily basis. This is why I have to doubt how fulfilling playing people locally would really be.

For the last time, I don't care about winning. All I want are some decent high level matches for god's sake. I just don't think I'll be able to have any without online tools to train myself. And for the record, I did say I would settle for ghost data and trainable AI opponents if they were set up to be postable and downloadable online.

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

Go to a big tournament like Evo, where you will be recognized for you skills, then talk if you can actually do well.

Noobs playing each other offers a good challenge for both, but that doesn't mean they are competitive enough to play against people who are consistently recognized as good players through meets and tournaments (live competition).

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

You are still not getting this are you, I was RELATING TO YOU since you are a DoAU player and not a DoA4 player (which is fine by me, I'm a Doa3.1 player). DoAU top players were *gasp* Offbeat, Master, Silent Legend, Justownin, couple other dudes. In the end though, nobody really gives a damn about DoAU. DoA2 was an old game, and the best version of it (the arcade) already had it's scene come and go with Tom Brady and others. Half of the dudes who came on with DoAU really weren't discovering anything new except for the differences between the two games (arcade and U).

If anything I think Master is overrated (and that was proven multiple times in DoA4) however the record stands that the ONLY DOAU major ever held offline was won by Master. WCG with DoAU was a peice of crap. Tom Brady already has record of his wins in the past DoA2 Arcade, and his legacy continued through Offbeat Ninja (literally as I said, a Tom Brady style Ein) whooped the shit out of everybody on LIVE including you, lag or no lag. It's funny how you use lag to belittle Offbeat Ninja yet in same breath say Offline and Online aren't that different.

You approached the level of skill they were at? Come on dude, that's like Insanelee coming back after EVO2k6 and telling Crow "But but but I could beat you at T5.0 now!!! I just wasn't at the level yet!" Nobody gives a shit, when the time came you weren't there, for DoA2 arcade and Doa2 Ultimate. DoA2U is out of competitive play and thank god cause it's honestly not a good game, not like Doa4 is any better.

I'm not throwing a fit because I don't think your good or your opinion of Master/Offbeat/Brady. I'm throwing a fit cause you act like 99% of all DoA Online players, full of shit. Seriously, even Mamba used to be some what like this then he went offline and met many people including me, calijared, and other SoCal DoA players and his whole opinion of the ordeal changed. You haven't so you still have this cocky attitude that your online wins and records actually mean shit. Please, you weren't anything in DoA2U when it was competitive, you weren't around for DoA2 Arcade, you don't like playing Doa4 (I don't blame you). It's alright to push your opinion in VFDC but don't come off like your some god of DoA cause I have more than enough proof that your not.

Online play does give you access to a large pool of talented players.... BUT IT'S AT THE COST OF IMPERFECT FORMAT. How hard is that for you to understand? How many times do I have explain the "online player gets own3d offline" situation to you DoA Online dudes? I've seen this fight for freaking 3 years and still people honestly think online play is great. Guess what's better? Making a scene. It seems to me you think making a scene is not gonna be as good as online play, that is a possiblity as most starting scenes are usually 3-5 guys. But what does this have to do with being lazy and not making a scene? You see this is why DoAU has no offline events cause players like you think online=offline and that is the reason why nobody plays DoAU anymore, and also why nobody real cares about your skill in it. A scene grows stronger the more work you put into it and the more work you put into finding people. As time goes you and your scene can travel together or host other players traveling in from out of state/country. Is online play easier, less work? Yes. I online play rediculessly imperfect? Hell yes. Does offline play help out the overall scene and the name of the game? Super yes.


Check this out, you want high level matches? Chances are you probably know absolutely nothing about VF or how to play VF right. So guess what that means if you find a buddy right now (hell you might even find one that played VF on the PS2 casually) you two will start off at the same level when you get either the PS3 ver or 360 ver. You will both grow at the same level especially if you are both of the same interest and competitive desire and VIOLA, you just made your own partner for high level play and no XBL was required! Now if you do that for 5 more partners, now you have scene going on. You guys can get together play once a week, have a massive 70 page thread named "Team IT'S COLD IN MINNESOTA" and even possibly have other people visit you (like Ohio, Michigan, etc.). You didn't even have to pay for XBL, you just used PEOPLE SKILLS, amazing. No ghosts, no online play, no XBL, just good ol fashioned people skills and competitive passion.

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

Alright, here is a perspective from a current DoA4 player. Online play sucks, has been trash, and will always be trash, for any game. Don't give me this "I can beat someone online" or "I can find high level play online." None of this is true. Online play just attracts meaningless casual people who wouldn't truly support the community. Lag is not the only problem with online play. Any game offline is different and much better played that way than online. I still don't see how people think there's actual skill online, at all. You can't counter on reaction, anticipation is necessary sometimes (read: guessing), and it just plain sucks compared to how fun an offline gathering can be. Just who are you, Xzyx987X? You must be blind to the greatness of offline. I hope someone can find mercy on your soul and bless you with offline goodness.

I like DoA in general, but online play really killed the game and the community. I wish online play for DoA never existed for it. Don't get me wrong, online features is always a good thing (even for VF it would have been), but online play does nothing positive. I'm glad VF5 doesn't have it. I would have liked online features though, but at least this communityh is safe from the effects of online play.