Virtua Fighter 5 Playstation 3 Version

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

I, and surely numerous others, would be quite interested to know what these nine categories are. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

Do you guys have any formal form for the letter of challenge? I'd like to submit one. VF being philosophical is a bit too hardcore for me to handle at the moment, but we,the Columbus crew, will do our best to match up with you guys. If you guys take VF as seriously as you wrote in your posts, that's who we'd like to play VF with anyway. If you guys accept it, we will set up a date and a place.



-maddy-

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

If you see one of my previous posts, I explain the situation with the letters of challenge. During our challenges VF is used as a proxy to settle (normally some nasty dispute), but we do spar from time to time.

chi-quanshu is actually responding to a challenge in the next week or so. We have one more to do for the year, I'm not sure if the second has been issued or accepted. I'll check.

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

With respect to the specifics of the nine categories at this time let me only say this, in the xiaolin temple there are three kinds of men. Students, disciples and Masters. Development of the mind can be achieved only when the body has been disciplined. To accomplish this the ancients have taught us to imitate God's creatures. From the crane we learn grace and self control. The snake teaches us suppleness and rhythmic endurance. The praying mantis teaches us speed and patience. And from the tiger we learn tenacity and power. And from the dragon, we learn to ride the wind and the fire and passion of the winged dragon, there is no discord. Between the supple silence of the snake, and the eagle's claws, there is only harmony.

As no two elements of nature are in conflict, when we perceive the ways of nature we remove conflict within ourselves. And discover a harmony of body and mind, in accord with the flow of the universe. It may take half a lifetime to master one system.

Each of the nine categories represent a journey toward self knowledge that most of the VF fighters in this message board are still on.

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

Just out of curiousty, what do you do for a living, Masterpo?

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

I'm a software epistemologist (AI)

My research is in computational linguistics,and philosophy. I work mostly on large clusters running Solaris or Linux.
My primary programming languages are Prolog, Mercury, and C++.

I know a little about AI /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

I'd like to schedule matches with the most junior fighter then.

 

I wonder how will the ranking titles be....

皇帝, 大帝, 豪傑, 小覇王, 覇王, 大覇王...

 

Woa Jay13, R4 champion in Singapore? R4 remains my favorite racer to today. I love the other RRs but R4 is me fave still <3

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

Kod,

When you say "whether you know what the other player's choice is once they make it", it becomes clear that you aren't taking into consideration the fact that VF, or any fighting game for that matter, isn't a game of partitioned sequential action - strictly turn-based - but rather of largely simultaneous events.

The only way to perceive VF as a game of perfect information is if you take the AI into consideration - which, as I said in my original post (and you seemed to ignore this little detail), parses every single command that the player makes before it actually takes place. So, it has perfect information because it is the arbiter of the entire process.

You could make a point that, between two perfect AI's, it would be a game of perfect information.

However, as I also said in my original post, that is the very same factor that would defeat the entire purpose of the game.

It isn't so much that the game happens too quickly for humans to take advantage of the perfect information, it's that there can be no perfect human knowledge of the other player's input until the effects of said input have happened - and this process is, many times, simultaneous with other actions.

You cannot perfectly and consistently react to something without knowing what it is, and this (knowledge by effect) is, at best, imperfect knowledge - in contrast to knowledge by cause, which is in fact the only true knowledge. QED

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

The fact that delayed attacks is a legitimate technique in the game shows you that you don't have perfect information as a player of either side.

You have no real method of telling how many frames you or your opponent delayed a button press or stick movement.

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

Uhm, given that your original post was taking masterpo to task for using deep blue as an example of AI as applied to games . . . I'd say it's pretty relevant for me to point out that VF is, in fact, a game of perfect information as far as AI as concerned. It's a solvable game, and one can, in theory, develop AI that plays the game optimally. I think you were trying to say that optimal AI wouldn't be interesting, but that's different from saying that fighting games aren't games of perfect information.

I think we're in agreement as far as the game being effectively imperfect from a human point of view, so I'll drop this.

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

Even if the information were perfect from a human's point of view (I'm not saying that it is or is not) But if it were the case, there is still the issue of being able to access it in a timely manner.

if there are 100s, or 1000s, or 10000s, etc of possible responses to some situation, the human mind typically has some kind of search heuristic that it employs in these situations.

Although the information may be perfect the search heuristic is probably not optimal.

The gamers with the best performance tend to have a better mix of intuition, search heuristic, and reflex than the other gamers.

However, if we had a human player that not only had access to perfect information, but had instantaneous and total recall of the information and had the eye-hand relex to act on the total recall then we could perform at the level of the best AI.

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

"You must defeat Sheng Long to stand a chance."

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

LOL @ chi-quanshu, this is probably a bunch of kids making shit up

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

I rather think a name change of the thread is in order. Rather than VF5 for PS3, should think of changing it to Philosophy 101 - Man vs. Machine.

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

I got the ps3 and when VF5 comes out I'm going to get one so I thought I brush up on it and was looking for vf5 move lists, but I see not much is available.

I use to play vf1, 2, and 4. Now I'm ready for VF5. VF was never too popular here so it's hard finding people that are ready to play with you so online would really be nice but I guess sega is not going to make that happen. It doesn't bother me that it's coming for the xbox 360. I think this would result in more players to play with. Even if the versions are slightly different, you can adapt quickly to the other platform.

This thread is getting a little too deep. First of all, virtua fighter is a game, and you play game to have fun. Not necessarily to impove yourself. What are you improving? Being the best VF fighter doesn't make you a better person. It gives you some satisfaction. To me a good AI is the next best thing to playing against a human being. Because human beings aren't perfect, that's what makes it fun. Human being have emotion, and they react to their surrounding which affects how they play. A computer only does what it was programmed to do regardless of what is going on around it. Even the best human beings will make some kind of error and to exploit that error to win is what it's all about. AI on the other hand are programmed to make errors so that you have a chance of beating it. So what's the satisfaction in that. It's a false one, because you thought it was good and you were able to beat it. If the machine was programmed to be perfect it can block every move because it can respond instantaneously, and the best you can do is a draw. So I rather play against a human being, but if there's none, a good ai is the next best thing. I don't want a perfect AI, what's the fun in that getting beat up all the time?

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

I think the bottom line is that people want to beat people for these types of videogames -- we're just not that interested in beating AI, no matter how good or life like.

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

Can I have some of whatever it is that you have been smoking?

 

does shun turn red in vf5 usa?

does shun turn red in vf5 usa? its that time of the year to see if YET AGAIN shun is being censored for the home american release.

so, anyone please confirm this little yet annoying crap /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif


shun. censored since vf2.