Virtua Fighter 5 Playstation 3 Version

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

S. Korea and Hong Kong aren't bad places either, though certainly not up to par with Japan.

 

I hope they release the high grade arcade stick here in the US.

 

Same, but incase they don't. Playasia has preorders up for it right now. May wana try that to be sure.

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

Your constant referencing to Deep Blue is key to your misunderstanding of the real issue.

A fighting game will never be like chess. There are more variables, as well as more intangibles, to consider. The human element is too strong, too prevalent.

On the other hand, Chess is essentially a completely programmed game, with almost predetermined set outcomes and perfect information. It is entirely algorithmic, and at GM level, things like intuition and spontaneity are completely out of the equation. It is an exercise in bookkeeping, encyclopedic knowledge, and mental endurance.

In a fighting game, there can never be perfect information. There is indeed a system being enforced - and in VF it's an especially tight system for a game of its type - but true mastery is a cyclic process instead of a linear one. You need to understand the rules and situations so that you can ultimately "forget" about them. Textbook play is a necessary step, but it is transcended.

I don't believe that you could, at this point, introduce enough granulation or imperfections into an AI so that it would have similar reactions to actual players, and therefore deliver on the promise of an actual match. Things like progressive layers of yomi (reverse nitaku, etc.) depend on a complex psychological reaction/reading, and not simply on data analysis.

You say, and I quote: "If Sega had access to real AI researchers they would be able to design fighters that could not be defeated by human opponents."

I would assume this wouldn't be difficult to do at all, even without "real AI researchers" as you put it.

Such an AI would simply react to your inputs instantaneously (remember, your commands have to be parsed by the game system itself), guarding appropriately, and never execute an attack in a disadvantaged frame situation, that could be beaten out by another attack. You wouldn't be able to throw it, or attack it. At best, it would be a stalemate.

In fact, this would be pretty easy to do. But it would also completely defeat the entire purpose. Human fallibility is as much of a requisite for making a fighting game work as anything else. It is more complex, while at the same time being simpler, than a mental exercise such as chess. I would be happy to call it simply different.

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

It's also impossible to get AI to simulate human error correctly. I mean, we all know what it's like to flub an input at a critical moment and wind up using the wrong techinique, right? An AI can be programmed to screw up at certain intervals, but it can't just randomly mess up like a human player does.

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

Hi, fellas. First post, and just wanted to say that if you want to get the VF sticks, NCSX might be a better choice if you're in the US than P-A simply because of the crazy shipping costs from Hong Kong.

I actually preordered two, and for that, the shipping was $11 at NCSX and something like $35 from P-A.

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

The kind of randomness that is being referenced here is part of modern day AI. It falls under the category of

non deterministic
&
stochastic
programming.

Has anyone in this thread heard of affective computing. Affective computing can be used to model human emotions.

My friends and fellow fighters, AI has come a long way sense the late 80's and early 90's.

There is a entire category of AI programming that has to do with
bayesian probability and reasoning.

If Sony were to develop this type of AI is would be refreshing and challenging. I agree that it is not a replacement for human opponents. I'm just saying I would rather have solid AI than
online gameplay. At least with the solid AI I know every match would be competitive. Not everyone online will have skills. And some of the fighters that have skills are not always around (online or otherwise) when you're ready for a match. The AI is always there ready, willing, and up to the challenge.

It will compete tireleslly.

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

Again, before making a commitment to what AI cannot do
do a google search, or yahoo search, or answer.com and
check out

non deterministic programming
bayesian reasoning
bayesian probability
stochastic programming
affective computing
quantum computing

These are (real AI) techniques. They are not yet available in gaming consoles yet. However with the release of the PS3 and
the cell broadband engine with its 9 processors, and storage options, there is now enough computing power to begin to use
true AI techniques in VF

My main point here, and if you all really think about it, I mean really think about it is:

Sega will probably not do online play in VF. So all of the energy in that direction can probably be better spent
asking Sega to improve the AI by giving the fighters true
AI not this first generation stuff that it uses now.

The folks at AM2 would probably pay more attention to that
request /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

To the contrary,
VF is very much like chess,

in fact VF is the fighting game's chess.

That's what contrasts it to Tekken, and DOA, and SC. There
is far more contemplation of strategy and allowable moves,
and counter moves. Like in chess the opening moves are extremly important like in chess the closing move is extremely important,

Chess has famous offensive (attack patterns) VF has famous offense attack patterns. Chess has famous defensive patterns, VF has famous defense patterns.

Perhaps you should really take the time to compare VF and chess they are any many respects simliar. In fact there is an interview somewhere on the web where Yu Suzuki made that very claim.

VF is a cereberal fighter, that's part of its hallmark.


/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

"Chess has famous offensive (attack patterns) VF has famous offense attack patterns. Chess has famous defensive patterns, VF has famous defense patterns."

That's true for -all- fighting games. Even the worst ones ever made. Both 3D and 2D alike.

"If Sony were to develop this type of AI is would be refreshing and challenging. I agree that it is not a replacement for human opponents. I'm just saying I would rather have solid AI than
online gameplay."

I'll agree with you here, entirely. I just wanted to hear that really.

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

Rather than online play Sega could

Improve AI (see previous posts)
Improve the animations of the blocking system.

Although the defense system in totality is excellent, some of the blocking ideas like those found in Namco's Urban Reign, or the crouching tiger hidden dragon fighter could be explored.

The hit physics could be modernized a little. Sega could take a small cue from fight night on the PS3 or the Def Jam ICON hit physics on the PS3.

It would also be kewl to change camera angles during replay.


There are a ton of things I'd like to see rather than online game play!

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

Masterpo,

I get your points, but when are you going to really prove that you are for real? Here's what you said a long time ago.

I wanna go for that wushu tiger trophy, although I'd probably lose to the mighty tactis of triple throw escapes, sabakies, and inashies. You have told me that there would be clips of you guys posted on your webpage last year. You have told me that you guys would be hosting an event last year. You have told me that you guys are for real. Are you and the Dojo chiquanshu for real, man?

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

Holy crap, dude! You have been called out by Maddy.

I suggest rising to the challenge and settling it here.

Granted, you and your dojo will likely get flattened in a big, public, and decisive way - I can think of no better forum to experience such a trouncing. Last year's event was awesome. Hope you all can show up.

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

This is just plain wrong. In a game theory sense, VF (and most fighting games) are games of perfect information - the game is completely described by the choice of characters (movelist), lifebar, relative position, and current advantage/disadvantage; all of this information is equally available to both players. It's not like poker, where you don't know what your opponent has in her hand.

You might argue that humans cant process that information fast enough or accurately enough, but the info is certainly there.

 

Will it work on a US PS3?

 

Yup, sure does. Connects with the USB port and has the analog built in I guess so it works fine with the PS3 (regardless of the nation). Looks pretty slick from the picture. They still havn't released any details on the parts and probably won't until the launch of it. Looks to myself and others though that the buttons are indeed sanwa parts, the stick however, no way to tell for now.

 

Every time you play online(FPS for example) people tend to "Cheat" alot. With "Aim Bots" or some other type of hack. Arcade is were is at. I'm lucky for the simple fact that I live where there's a strong arcade scene(Chinatown Fair NYC). The resone the Arcade scene is like it use to be(The U.S) b/c the companies decided it to cut the market out, instead of trying new things. Japan is doing it right(We all know that).

 

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/753/753530p1.html

1080p or not?

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

I really don't joke about tournaments, dojo chiquanshu
is very real.

I told you the website was going to be launched, it is still under construction. But I got permission to give you a link to an internal version:

http://www.ctestlabs.org/simulation

some links work, some don't, it is under construction. I'm told that there were some legal reasons why the first one had to come down. I got the link above from one of the web developers after reading your post.

I must apologize for not getting back to you, we did have the tournament I referred to at Jillians in Youngstown Ohio in October 2006. I had forgotten about my post of it in VF.

We do have Dvd's of the tournament there are licensing issues that are being worked out because additional movies, and music have been added. Our Dvds have the matches as well as other stuff. At some point they'll be released. Whenever they are they will be well received. The fighters in chi-quanshu bring something different to VF matches.


I understand that the Japanese, and the Korean players are good,

But the fact that they are referred to as players demarcates the difference.

In terms of challenges and being called out, well...

dojo chi-quanshu accepts about 2 letters of challenge each year.

One letter has already been accepted and that challenge will take place in the next couple of weeks, probably it Youngstown State University. I'm not aware of whether a second challenge has been accepted.

But from what I've read in the last few posts in reference to my statements about AI, Its not likely that a challenge from the responders would be considered.

 

Re: Smarter AI vs. Online Play

;o;