Virtua Fighter 5 Location Test in Japan Information and News

Perhaps the weight affects CD, back dashing, etc. speed now. Just speculating.

 

does slow throw make throw game stronger? now whenever your opp is -6 ~ -7 all they need to do is back dash guard to make immediate attack/throw whiff. not to mention throw range got nerfed too. obviously vf5 encourage players to attack more and throw less. does it sound like Tekken?

 

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tianyuan2k2 said:

does slow throw make throw game stronger? now whenever your opp is -6 ~ -7 all they need to do is back dash guard to make immediate attack/throw whiff. not to mention throw range got nerfed too. obviously vf5 encourage players to attack more and throw less. does it sound like Tekken?

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I was just about to mention that. It does sound a bit like Tekken. People hardly throw in the game and when you do, it's like a 60% chance it'll not get escaped unless it's an obvious throw set up.

I kinda like this idea of slower throw frames for the heavy weights and grapplers. Makes sense especially if some of the throws are gonna be unescapable. Just means the other characters have to work a bit harder and get their TE game up.

 

actually i will say vf5 feels more like sc3 because they seem to share the same concept: attack > throw > dodge/side dash > attack. there are many problems in sc3, so vf5 will be much more reasonable and deeper.

 

Guys, don't worry about the throws and the throw-based characters. When VF4 went on play test a lot of people complained (notably Bun Bun Maru and Segaru) that throw-based characters like Wolf and Jeffry were nerfed, since throws went from a 1-frame in VF3 to an 8-frame in VF4 execution. Of course looking bad that worry seems misplaced--throws still take a huge part of VF4's gameplay as it did in VF3.

So whatever AM2 does with VF5 throws, I trust it will eventually make sense.

 

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alucard said:

Low punches have always worked that way in VF3 (which was awesome btw), and it does make the game much more interesting. In VF3, entering low punch from a standing postion requires an additional 6f, this means that one cannot low punch out of a disadvantage in nearly all situations cos its so slow. Even in -1 situations, some launchers will still beat you if you try to low punch to regain advantage.

When VF4 was first released, I was surprised (and pissed) that am2 had decided to use VF2's low punch stats (which is garbage). I feel that too much of VF4 revolves around beating low punches, the initial versions had little to offer in that aspect, they only added more anti-low punch elements to the game in later versions (more special highs, low punch reversals/crushing moves, etc...).

Now that the game is freed of this burden, the possibilties should be endless.

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Exactly right, and this was by far the most glaring fault inherent in VF4's gameplay aside from the limited freedom of movement. Great to see they've addressed this. I'm also pleased to hear that throws now have a pre excecution phase which is animated.

 

I think the concept, as someone else pointed out, is maybe to tone down the use of Escape-Throw Escape every time a player is at even Small Disadvantage. Since Throws are slower, they can't be used against -2 situations like they could in VF4, where you basically HAVE to attack or enter defensive commands even at -2, since ducking isn't fast enough to avoid a throw. I think they want to encourage more Yomi and less "technical commanding" like ARE, EDTEG etc. As it sits now, if you Escape at the wrong time, you're screwed.

So while it might seem like Throws are weaker as a first impression, Sega has added a few things we can already see that compensate for this:

1. the new missed Escape animation: I haven't heard exactly how this works, but from the footage we saw from the Private Show, it seems there's a HUGE window where you're screwed if you Escape at the wrong time. Perhaps during this time one can't TE, making this basically "free throw" time? Will TE's cancel this animation if buffered into the Escape? We don't know yet. In any case, this right off discourages rampant use of the Escape-Throw Escape technique which is the defensive staple against Nitaku in VF4.

2. the new Dodge: people have said that Throws suck this thing in, so while it's not the same as using a Throw in a case where you have advantage as before, it's a new kind of Yomi: guessing when the oppt is gonna use the new Dodge, and Throwing in response. Can TE's be buffered into the new Dodge? Probably, but it might mean loosing your ability to quickly offend from it. Maybe after initial testing, Sega found Throws to be much too powerful against the new Dodge and the missed Dodge, and tried to balance by slowing Throws down a little?

3. the new ring sizes: Many people have commented that the new rings are so small, one japanese site said most seem 10 X 10, which is the size of the enclosed rings in VF4. This means the positional Throws are much stronger, like Kage and Wolf's famous ones, maybe even Throws like Goh's ++, Akira's ++ etc can now be major RO threats. I think this sounds like a lot of fun /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif I'm hoping this means that Jeffry and Wolf's pick-up throws are now a threat at ring side again as well.

So maybe Throws will be even more powerful, as some have suggested, just in a new way that we can't understand or see yet. Personally, I wish that when they did these early location tests, they'd explain how these new systems worked together on a conceptual level:

"this is how the new dodge works, this are it's strong and weak points, this is why we've slowed throws, this is why missed dodge is weak, but it's stronger in this respect etc etc.... now understanding how these ideas correlate, tell us what you think of the game".

Seems like they'd get more thoughtfull and less reactionary responses to the test like "throws are too slow!" "I can't ARE!" "Akira's shoulder is weak!".

Also, VPai was mentioning how Speed characters will beat out Power characters Attack wise, but this isn't the case. You have to understand that Wolf, Jeffry, Akira are Power characters, not "Slow" characters. Their attacks are literally more powerful, meaning that they'll have priority over many Speed characters' quicker attacks. Look at Jeffry's Knee versus Sarah's Dragon Cannon: Jeffry's Knee is + at 17 frames, while the Dragon Cannon is + at 16 frames. Since the Cannon has 2 command inputs, at a practical level, they have the same execution time. But, Jeffry's Knee does 30 damage while the Dragon Cannon is at 28; so not only would Jeffry's Knee win in this case toe-to-toe, it means that the same rule applies for Jeffry's Knee vs all attacks that do less than 30 damage when executed in a similar time frame.

If you look at the command lists, you'll see characters like Aoi who have no Attacks that reach 30 damage, or Brad who only reaches 30 damage (and not above) when using a Charge Attack. Then look at Wolf, Jeffry's command lists and you'll see many Attacks whose damage reaches or exceeds this level of power. then you remember that Aoi, Brad etc are also light weight, and you have Balance.

Here's another fact that people don't usually consider: Jeffry and Wolf's is better than every other character. On normal hit, it gives them +6, not +5 as everyone else's. This means that it takes 17 frames for a Girl and 18 frames for everyone else to or + after a hit from Wolf/Jeffry, which spells perfect Nitaku for them with their 17 frame Knees.

Sega works really hard to balance these things, and it'll be worked out. I remember in the first version of VF4 I played, even Wolf's + made him lunge forward like the Giant Swing does now. People shouldn't worry, Throw will always be a big factor for VF.

Bryan

 

Kewl,

Looks like the new VF5 will be ready in time for the letters of
challenge from the school of chiquanshu.

 

11 frame throwing doesn't sound that bad to me. That's roughly the same speed as the average so it makes sense. It also weakens -> throw a little bit so I think overall that's a positive change.

The game is only in beta test right now, so it's way too early to complain about attack/throw mixup being weakened anyway. This is VF5 not VF4. It looks like backdash/crouch/boxstep have all been changed, so everyone's mindset will once again have to change just like in the past.

Also, if shit goes wrong there's always version B. /versus/images/graemlins/indifferent.gif

 

trust AM2!!! prey hard!!! that's all we can do, isnt it?

 

/me watches for people swinging from Sega's nuts to slip....

 

I am a little surprised that there hasn't been more character specific information. I'd like to see how Goh's coming along in particular - him and Akira were my mainstays in Evo, even if his movelist was a little lacking in comparison to a lot of other characters.

I'm also glad that the D+P has beenj changed to make it slower - beginning players in VF4 and Evo often found out how easy it is to outpunch opponents with it, and it happened all too frequently in some of the matches I saw in the arcades. Watching beginners spam it endlessly is actually painful to watch.

Damn. I wish I could have been there at the location testing, just to see it in motion. This new collision and evasion system sounds interesting, to say the least.

 

Well there is a lot of Kage specific stuff here if you want to Babelfish it or whatever.

http://www.nikujaga.fromc.jp/VF5kage.html

 

Re: Virtua Fighter 5 Location Test in Japan starts Tomorrow (12.26.05)

this is tight!!!!

 

guys.................

dont forget wolf's slow giant swing in EVO was 11 frames~

mabye the windows in VF5 have a higher / wider window as such meaning that like wolf, you cant necessarily duck a throw at small or mid disadvantage~.

although that doesnt *seem* to be the case by what we know, im just saying that frames alone cant judge everything yet.

 

I personally wouldn't assume throws are 11 frames based on all the information that's been available. I actually think it's slower than that.

The reason why people say P->throw is weakend is because even if you are MC'ed by a P, you can duck on reaction to make the throw whiff. Of course, if they opted for a mid, you'd get hit anyways. So it's not really a case of nitaku being gone. But rather, that if the opponent simply wants to avoid the throw and take smaller dmg, he can simply always duck, and eat a normal hit mid. In this sense, throws are less of a threat during P hit situations.

 

myke srider updated a while back that
Testing reveals that throws are now 13~14 frames - ouch

from sriders comments about jeffry being able to after a blocked jeffry causing adam to laugh hysterically, my analysis might be this. Since the throwing takes more frames now, it reduces a large amount of moves that are throw guarenteed. This in effect discourages faster characters from abusing throws too much from the lack of damage output versus risk and slower characters gain more damage from strikes and combos without worrying about throw guarenteed situations. Perhaps the larger striking damage of these characters will cause players to be more defensive in these matchups, causing a simple strike throw nitaku situation. I dont know how goh will fall into all this and pai and jackys throws should have damage decreased as well.

Just a quick thought on the situation.

 

Something just hit my stupid ass brain like a brick.

If throw and elbow are both 14 frames, there will always be nitaku at any frame setting, it just won't be forced because of the throw. If things stay this way fuzzy guard will become very weakened. /versus/images/graemlins/tear.gif

 

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Dandy_J said:

Something just hit my stupid ass brain like a brick.

If throw and elbow are both 14 frames, there will always be nitaku at any frame setting, it just won't be forced because of the throw. If things stay this way fuzzy guard will become very weakened. /versus/images/graemlins/tear.gif

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Exactly, this effectively forces you to make a guess instead of relying on defensive techs such as fuzzy guarding. So if you don't want to eat a throw, you choose to eat a mid.

Imagine situations after blocked P, it's going to be impossible to employ any tech that can perfectly avoid both throw and mid. With the addition of slower and shorter range lp, it will become impossible to perfectly defend against mid or throw, besides ETEG. This however, has a dramatically increased risk in VF5 because of the longer whiffed evade animations. Effectively, the new system forces you to make guesses in every situation with no turning back, and makes it possible to have bigger punishments from a wrong guess.

If you choose ETEG and guesses wrong, this results in whiffed evade, and punishable on reaction, on top of possible throw.

If you choose to avoid throw by ducking, you will get possibly staggered or be put in a highly disadvantaged situation, pushishable by side combo or another harder guessing situation, or even low thrown from the get go.

If you choose to stay standing, you can eat low attacks, or high throw damage.

It looks like VF5 is going to really nerf fuzzy guarding in VF and force those people to make less safe guesses. It all these things come true, VF5 looks like it will be a game that highly stresses yomi and knowledge.