Virtua Fighter 5 Final Showdown

That's what I prefer as well. The only change that I would like to see is an increase in original complexity, not having it generically simplified, especially with the long and unpleasant juggles with or without the back wall support. Not every fighting game should have this, because I find it shallow. Unfortunately, this is what attracts the majority oppose to myself. I would still play this despite of it, but I would like to see that change.

 

Err... Throws haven't got shafted. Sure, their damage hasn't increased, but the MTEs are GONE! The fact that you only have ONE imput within a timeframe to break a throw makes throws more dangerous.

In other words, they got an upgrade.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If AM2 scaled throws, attacks, and combos in unison, then there would be no need to change the universal lifebar value of 201. But the lifebar has most likely been changed to allow for higher damage combos yet throws seem to have not kept pace damage wise which reminds me strongly of Tekken.</div></div>VF's throw system - attacks beat throws.

Tekken's throw system - throws beat attacks.

See the flaw in your logic?

 

I would imagine it would be the same as if Akira would do in Vanilla (a direction which he does not have - excluding his catch throw of course (as it cannot be TE'd)). Throw animation and neutral throw break I'm assuming. (inb4 someone tries to make me look stupid) I don't mean that with Akira in Vanilla would produce a throw animation and neutral throw break, it would product throw animation and back throw break. I'm saying that in FS I assume it to be a neutral throw break amd throw animation. Hmmm thinking about it that may produce some kind of crazy option select of low throw escape and neutral throw. Who knows...thinking about it I've baffled myself now.

So I've read the gameplay changes of VF5:FS and it says that throws are now faster, right?

Why is it then that during the loc tests I saw numerous occasions when throws were being fuzzied at -5? I remember strongly Akira doing it off of blocked (-5 on block in FS). It's quite a pill to swallow that each time that happened it was because of delayed fuzzy/delayed throw (or thrower simply being too slow).

At what disadvantage can you TEG at? If you can't fuzzy at -5 anymore and you can only break 1 throw direction it would seem as though TEG would be very strong at small disadvantage. That is off course if it's possible to TEG at something small like -4 or so without the throw animation coming out...that could be very painful lol.

I wonder how sabaki's would change. Would they still cover move classes such as HP, LP, EL/MP all in one - particularly from first frame activation? As Marly pointed out that would be quite an obstacle to get around as it would completely nullify traditional small frame advantage offence (well the first layer atleast).

 

Same

 

Throws losing to attacks is a serious nerf. Also when combos are increased in damage, the lifebar is made larger, yet throw damage more or less remains the same, it might as well be considered a general nerf to throws.

You aren't following me and you are being needlessly argumentative. In VF5FS throw damage has not been scaled accordingly with combos. If throws, striking attacks, and combos had all been scaled the same, then there wouldn't need to be a change in the total value of the lifebars in VF5FS. The lifebar in VF5FS was changed because combos do such high damage that 201 lifebars are apparently too small.

In VF5FS throws don't do as much damage as I think that they should. Especially throws like Wolf's giant swing that used to be 90/100 in previous VF games but now do what, 55/66? And throws lose to attacks again in 5FS. The risk/reward for throws skews closer to risk and further away from reward than previous VF games from what I can tell. AM2 seems to want players to throws less and attack with big damage sequences, like dodge bodycheck, or huge long combos, much more.

Now look at Tekken, especially 6BR, where throws can be broken purely on reaction, and don't do nearly the same amount of damage as combos. Sure the throw systems in VF and Tekken aren't the same, but the emphasis, at least damage wise, in 5FS and 6BR, seems to be on scoring large damage combos and less on striking attacks and throws. Damage wise in 6BR combos yield the by far most and it looks the same in 5FS. That is why I feel that VF5FS is trying to copy Tekken 6BR with it's big damage flashy long combos and generally weaker throw games. Yes the throw systems are different in 6BR and 5FS but they both seem pretty weak.

 

If you think about it though doesn't high damage juggles and throws go hand-in-hand?

With the removal of throw clash yes you open yourself up to getting launched but in the same breath you also have the option to go for a launch on them for a CH!

I think that you look at the throws too critically. You are upset that throws are now not so safe to throw out there as you can take serious damage if they guess correctly.

Everything has to lose to something right? In Vanilla throws could still be beat out by attacks. That's the beauty of moves such as and designated anti-throw clash moves.

It just so happens that in FS they have expanded upon what beats throws (and quite rightly so...if you think about it in Vanilla the only thing you ever lost to of notable worth is (measly +4) and anti-throw clash move. Both of these are pretty measly rewards, I mean Sarah's anti-throw clash move, although it serves it's purpose, is 21f and a correct read only nets you, what, like 55pts of damage? Probably alot less on HW's).

Everything has it's weakness. Just because throws lose outright to highs/mids now it's no need to be butt hurt over it. It's just a change in the mindgames. Seriously if there were no changes to mind games in each installment of VF you would get VERY bored wouldn't you? I'm sure you would even complain if that was the case.

Throws lose to attacks and fuzzy. As I said throws and launchers go hand-in-hand so if you demoralise them with high damage juggles then doesn't that just make it so much easier for you throw out (pun intended) a throw? You can look at the changes regarding launches and throws in many different ways but you can't deny that if your opponent gets caught with 100+ damage off of a juggle they may rethink their strategy, right? And seeings as all characters have like 60pt damage throw minimum now it's not as if they are weak (goodbye 30% of your health).

Launchers lose to block. From block you (should) get punishment. From punishment you get decent damage/frame advantage. Your punishment may knock down, you get to employ oki. From frame advantage you can net CH damage/delayed launch vs evade/throw for decent damage and knockdown again leading to oki.

 

This is actually bringing the VF system closer to DOA4 more than Tekken, whose throws still beat attacks.

Throws losing to attacks makes sense and improves the risk reward triangle of throw/guard/attack (with escape being the floating element - in DOA its counter holds)

 

I'm not pleased that one of VF's elegant differentiators, that the throw-centric characters had more viable throw directions to escape than the other characters and so had more of a chance to land one, is gone.

 

My strong guess is that throws take 10 frames to execute in FS.

 

Yes..Its called Making the game accessible to everyone without compromising a lot. Only people who are griping about this is the people who WANT to beat out throws by attacking. Makes no never mind to me anyway. Ill just Adapt and Smash plain and simple. this make VF FS faster and even more exciting. Now im starting to get tired of the bitching about the new features. AM2 never let me down gameplay wise in vf before (Just release-wise.) I trust Am2 with this decision and i like it.

People bitch and complain about wanting sega to expand to a new players and when they do it motherfuckers start complaining about shit who NEVER even played the game before.

The Anarchy.

 

What an idiotic attitude. If a new feature isn't good then people need to accept it simply because it is new? If a new feature is a step back or poorly executed then why should everyone be restricted from complaining or criticizing it? Not everything that is new is good. Not everything that AM2 does with VF is good. It's not like people are complaining for the sake of complaining and trying to find any reason that they can to criticize VF. I love VF, but I started playing during VF4/EVO/FT, and those games are my idea of VF. 5FS seems to be veering into Tekken territory and I don't like that.

They never let you down gameplay wise? What VF games have you played? You're only experience with VF is just VF5 Vanilla isn't it? How many VF4, EVO, and FT matches do you even have to make such a statement? VF3? TB? If you've only played VF5 version C then what possible comparison can you make between any VF games?

There are good amount of people here, and many who left VF playing after 5 came out (including a ton of Japanese players), who saw VF5 Vanilla as a major step down from EVO and FT. I want nothing more than VF5FS to be a major breakout hit that stands on its own as a great game, a great Virtua Fighter, a return to form and greatness for VF like during the EVO/FT era, but I'm just not seeing it at all. AM2 looks very indecisive with where they want to take the VF franchise. AM2 isn't impressing me at all. Reno already said that some Japanese players are describing the game as rough or unpolished and that is hardly what I expect of a VF game.

I just don't feel that excited over 5FS. Maybe it's the new system changes I don't like. Maybe it's that I didn't like VF5 and I really was turned off to VF altogether when 5R never made it outside of Japan. Either way I just hope AM2 pulls its head out of its ass and puts the game on consoles.

You know what exposes VF to more people than making system changes for scrubs or beginners? Releasing the game on consoles. Better yet? Releasing a game with VF4EVO's incredible training mode. Fighting games don't need to be easy or instantly accessible to sell well. Hyper Fighting was extremely popular in arcades and that game is brutally hard at even intermediate levels. MvC2 is even harder and its selling point was simply the brands and characters even though competitive MvC2 has an execution barrier that is sky high.

I'd rather see AM2 make VF hard and include a training mode then simply reduce execution and knowledge barriers to attract casuals who will drop the game after a few months anyways.

 

Wow, I thought Sega couldn't do worse than the leadership it has now but if people like you were in charge, Sega would be doing way worse than how it's doing now.

Yes, EmpNova, Sega should totally focus on pleasing a very small percentage of "hardcore" VF players who love just how hard VF is to play.
Because, at the end of the day, it's not about selling a game and making money. Fuck money. Who needs that?
Nope, this isn't a business for Sega, it's a hobby where they get to please a small demographic whom hasn't stopped bitching and moaning since VF2 and VF3.
"Waaah, they changed my favorite fighting game and made it more noob-friendly, waaah"
or
"This new VF sucks, it resembles (insert rival fighting game here) too much, waaah!"

Seriously, Sega is up shit's creek without a paddle with some of you people. When it comes to changing the gameplay, they're damned if they do and damned if they don't.
There's some of you who will NEVER, EVER stop pissing and moaning.

You can't please everybody and nothing in this world is perfect but... guess what babies?
Even if you designed the next VF your fucking self, it would still suck.
It would probably sell way worst too.

P.S.
This isn't a Sega defensive post. For all I know this game does suck. But I won't be able to say until I get my hands on it.

 

GS damage got nerfed because he got Burning Hammer which does even more damage then GS did in VF5/FT/Evo/VF4.

Throws don't need to do more damage since (you seem to have missed this) THROWS DO A HELL OF A LOT OF DAMAGE IN VF, especially for being so fast and no room to break on reaction. Even with a 220 dmg lifebar.

 

I have played tekken 6, and among other things strongly dislike its one-throwescape system. Its one of the things that make tekken feel like it has no defensive techniques whatsoever, and the highest culmination of good defense is simply blocking (to an extent, techning). It makes the game FEEL too simple and boring. The variety in the game is in the attack.

I would imagine FS would make me feel the same.

 

You seem to think that a game needs to be simplified to make money. That a game made for the hardcore gamer won't sell well. What is your evidence? Plenty of games that are furiously hardcore and designed for only the most elite gamers can generate enough profit to be made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon%27s_Souls

VF not selling has nothing to do with gameplay. When VF5 PS3 has no online, bad CPU AI, and is released when the PS3 user base is tiny, it shouldn't surprise anyone that it bombed. And obviously 5R sold zero copies on consoles meaning it made zero money on consoles. VF makes no money outside of Japan because Sega and AM2 have lost their business sense. Leasing the game only to Japanese arcade operators and keeping the later revisions and major updates arcade exclusive hurts VF infinitely more than the game being hard to play.

VF3TB, 4, and EVO were difficult games and sold just fine without needing to have gameplay mechanics that catered to casual gamers. If you make VF easy it still won't be as easy as SFIV so you aren't going to pull that many people from that game. You need to make VF different, unique, and market it that way.

VF5FS could be the Demon's Souls of fighting games. Designed for absolutely hardcore gamers with a uncompromising attitude. No need to simplify VF even the slightest.

 

EmpNova, I think maybe you just enjoy playing Devil's Advocate?

If the game is now more accessible and will bring more players then it's a good move, flat out. As long as the game still retains it's layers and reaches them, the same amount, if not more.

And now, hopefully a wider audience will get to enjoy all the layers VF has to offer.

It looks liek now, you can take a long hiatus from the game and be able to pick it up because the perishable skill that is execution, won't be so much in the way.

imo you want to match minds with this game, and you want to be able to branch out with it into all sorts of depth. It just needs to retain that, but allow more people to participate.

 

How much more accessible could VF4EVO possibly have been with its tutorial mode? You seem to want VF to take a shortcut and reduce its complexity for some cheap cash grab. Why does a game have to be accessible only by making it easy to pick up and instantly play? Wouldn't a robust and fully comprehensive tutorial mode do more for the VF community in the long run than simply pandering to the SFIV market by designing casual mechanics? If you attract lazy and casual gamers with a more lazy and casual game what exactly are you accomplishing? I fail to see how making VF play easier will help it at all. You won't make it as easy as SFIV so people aren't going to transition to VF because it will still be harder than SFIV. The people who want an accessible game where you can see huge flashy cool ultra combos will play SFIV. The people who want the best, most competitive, most reward experience, who want VF, will be left with the worst VF yet because AM2 sold out.

All I see is VF being stripped of its identity as a unique fighter. VF4EVO with its tutorial mode was amazing because it taught anyone who wanted to learn almost every aspect of the game. VF4EVO didn't need to lower itself to the level of a casual gamer, instead VF4EVO offered a tutorial mode that elevated the casual gamer to an intermediate VF player by teaching that person how to play through lessons and examples.

VF5FS could be as hard as Demon's Souls and it wouldn't hurt it at all. There is no evidence whatsoever they making VF easier or more like Tekken will help it whatsoever. The less unique VF is, the more like other games it looks, feels, and plays, the less reason people will have to experience it because it will simply be redundant, more of the same.

 

Im not sure where this discussion is going,

In my opinion Sega could choose not to release FS outside of Japan because it would not sell more than 50K. It could sell more, but not as much as a new WII sonic game.

It's crazy that the best fighing game could sell a fraction of a generic mini-games compilation or something. But that's the reality of the situation. Sega should promote VF more, but there is no guarantee that those would be money well spent. They promote VF in Japan because they have a market there already.

50K at a stretch. It's shocking when you think about it. what games sell so poorly nowadays? any generic WW2 FPS sells better than that. Any mortal kombat/Army men/funfair game sells better.

What is Sega going to do? At this point, what I think it's their last chance to succeed is to launch a new arcade board and make VF6 mind-blowingly gourgeous, while keeping the FS formula.

Right now I think that the only way to attract more people to VF is to tempt them with graphics. anybody who spent somet time playing the game will already know the gameplay is solid, it's just a matter of selling it to the rest of the fighting community. that first hurdle, getting people excited about the game, look at the vids and think "cool shit, I want to do that".

I recently re-bought DOA4 because I wanted to check what was the appeal of the game in the first place. it seems to me that Itagaki phylosophy was "fuck the hardcore, lets make the game appealing to onlookers". DOA4 is a game that I like to watch, not play. But once it sold millions of copies, who cares? it's done.

 

It was very accessible, but it was mainly accessible to those that already have a fighting game background. It was accessible to those already exposed to the genre.

Where did I seem, or even say, that I want VF to take a shortcut to reduce it's complexity? It's not something I want, but it's something I can accept. I just want people to play VF, as long as VF remains to be what VF really is all about to me. When it's not, then I just won't play. Guess what? Alot of people aren't even playing VF right now, and part of it is because others aren't.

Let me do what you're doing, and assume too, real quick. You "seem" to not really know VF's complexity or what makes it so appealing anyhow.

I don't think you understand that some people just don't want to even have to sit through tutorials on a freaking game they choose to relax to and play.

I just got this feeling, that you don't even want players to play with. Just play the VF you feel is the most complicated one, and continue to play it in your room by yourself, and get your own jollies and continue on with the rest of your -let me assume again- seemingly mundane or repetitive dailies.

If FS is going to suck, then it's going to suck. If FS is going to be great, then it's going to be great. The "risk" they're taking I hope just works out so everyone can be happy and/or satisfied, and most importantly, playing VF man. That's it.

-

Sometimes I feel like you just want the game to be sooo complex by your definition of the word, so you can talk about it's intricacies on forum, instead of playing and enjoying yourself and your time.

 

Burning Hammer now does 100 points (up from 85), F5 is up to 70 from 75 and I can only shudder to think how much Burning Driver will be - my bet is 150). Add to that his new Diamondhead low throw which does 80 and the Falcon Arrow does 75, Giant Swing decreasing in damage isn't too big a deal for me.