Virtua Fighter 5: Final Showdown Lion Thread

tnx for the reply! good info!
i'm trying to pick him up, but as my mains are jeff and taka i keep looking for the easy mid into good damage. lions a different style, and it's taking me longer to adapt than i thought.

 

To keep your opp standing
from smallest advantage to biggest,

POKING
6P low risk, 6PP natural combos on crouchers
4PP good poke, goes under highs, safe if pepole don't react to 2cand hit (high), negative on hit though
3K standard midkick but better than average good reach and semi cirular which is uncommo for 3K moves, so it's probably the best 3K in the game. +8 on crouchers
8K, semi circular, jumps over low attacks, one of my fav moves. Gives combo on counter. Low risk medium reward, very good move imo.
9P+K again semi circular, no jumping properties but faster and very good range.



Larger Advantage/ going for damage

33P+K P+G hitthrow around 60ish damage on normal hit, but input heavy and slow, can go under highs though

46k or P+K, slow moves but with good return on normal hit, 46K goes above low attacks.

FC 6P+K, good move for fishing wall combos

 

Quick question, I've been watching some combo vids and picked up a few using 3P+K which I sorta dismissed when I first picked up Lion because it just didn't work well for me (maybe it was because i was inexperienced) That said it seems like a amazing combo starter and if anyone could give me tips on where it needs to be placed they would be appreciated. I can get it out sometimes but most of the time it gets beat out because I'm not used to it. I'll keep working on it once I have my friends to train with but i thought I may as well ask here as well

thanks in advance

 

3P+K, is mostly useful in 3 type of situations:

• Duck under high attacks then throw
• Punish failed evade by doing a delayed 3P+K
• Punish a blocked move that is -15., or after you escaped a move with a long recovery.

It gives +12 on NH and +16 on CH, but it's hard to hit on counter due to the fact that it's a high attack with no cirular properties, so don't expect to earn a cH very often.

After a NH you can go for throw or P,K
Near walls you can try PP4P, if the second P makes them hit the wall you can con tinue for big damage with 46K etc

 

Thank you for the thoughtful reply so its a reactionary move, sounds good to me and I'll get on practicing when I can, thanks again.

 

I have an additional use for 3P+K to add to the list ^_^

3P+K is an excellent option against what I call "Evade-Counterable" moves. An evade-counterable move is an attack that is completely opened to guaranteed attacks when evaded under the stuation. How evade-counterable an attack is depends much on the move itself as well as when the move was evaded (which is often influenced by how much of a disadvantage the evader was at before evading the counterable attack). Anyways, I'll list why I think 3P+K is great here and I will give a sample situation.

• 3P+K is +15 advantage to Lion when it hits a side-exposed opponent.
  • This guarantees a pre-buffered in 44K combo.
  • If your 44K combo damage is high against your opponent, then 3P+K becomes a better option against a side-turned opponent.
• 3P+K is easy to input, you are less likely to lose frames buffering it from an evade.
  • This is easier to input than 336P+K in evade-counterable situations unless the counterable attack is wide open.
  • The speed and the easy input can matter based on your display's lag. I will say from experience that a laggy display can be misleading.
• With the confidence of landing the 3P+K, the 44K is very easy to pre-buffer.

So here's an example using the Lion mirror match and a popular attack that should get punished more:
Assume you are Good Lion, fighting Bad Lion.

• Bad Lion does 2P (hit, +4 for Bad Lion) --> 2_3P uppercut.
• Good Lion evades the 2_3P uppercut and as far as I have tested up to an 18 frame attack is guaranteed to mC (minor Counter = hit opponent during attack recovery).
• Good Lion does the following combo for 90 damage:
  • 3P+K --> 44K, P+K --> 46P+K --> 43P+K --> 6PP

This isn't even the max damage; this is the easy-to-do non-stance specific general spacing combo.
That said, I'm sure someone has a 90+ damage combo from 336P+K in evade-counterable situations but I honestly haven't put them into my game yet.

But I think 3P+K is very worthy as an evade-counter attack, as long as the opponent is standing anyways.

And for the record, 3P+K does work from the -2 (for Good Lion) situation. The above does indeed apply to:

Bad Lion does P(G) (Guarded, +2 for Bad Lion) --> 33P (uppercut)

Hope this helps and makes 3P+K seem at least a little bit better ^_^

Also, because I've always had a fondness for this attack since Vanilla, I often pre-buffer 44 when using 3P+K as a general poke. This isn't as good online, but in offline play I use it and have scored a lot of big combos with it. However, the hard part is I recommend "Pre-Checking." Pre-Checking is what I call sort of hit-checking before the hit occurs, you're watching to see if the opponent is in an attack animation or throw animation before the hit.

 

Good lord sir that's great information, I love how the VF community is like 100x more helpul than any other part of the FGC.

Thanks for the info because this is one of the best combo openers that I know of and it will be a big help to me, I had a rough time using it last night (though I did finally pick up PP4P and 3K into my repertoire). But hopefully especially with the example you gave illustrating it much better I can finally use some of this theory fighter lol.

 

Lion is much tougher to pick up after learning the basics of the game with Jean...but he is still my favorite character so far. I don't quite understand the reputation that he's "cheap" or "annoying" I find characters like Vanessa or Sarah much "cheaper" as they seem to have a plethora of strings and combos, particularly Vanessa who seems to have some of the best safe 2-hit strings in the game, she's so scary!

But yeah, I find myself not reacting as quickly on punishments with Lion because his main launcher needs a counter hit 33P, and his 44k is great, but I'm having a bit of a hard time transitioning from Jean's simple Knee 6k or even is two hit elbow 6pp to lions double tap on back. Would love to play a really good lion to see what I'm missing.

One thing that bothers me in this version is Lions back game. I remember playing Evo on PS2 and Lion had like 2 or 3 jumping attacks that turned him around and he had some great/quick options with his back to the opponent. Now he has like one of those, and that move is ridiculously slow and I only see it used in combos. (46K+G) So I'm assuming we're not supposed to be turned around as much with Lion in this version, which makes me ask, what is his real mix-up at high level? I know he has some good lows, but good players aren't gonna lose75% damage to oki mix ups. Getting into his stances I'm assuming is a big part of his game, but they all seem really slow and unsafe during an actual match. So I guess I have a two part question, Is lion's new stance game an equivalent to his old back-turned mix-up game? if so, what moves or strings are you guys using to get into his stances safely?

 

Usual Disclaimer: Here's my take, it's just incomplete opinions and impressions only and are susceptible to being either wrong or non-optimal

Cheap/Annoying
Here are some of the things that have made Lion traditionally earn this reputation, and I like using these things:

• Arsenal of decent/good low attacks - While almost all of them are very punishable, it enables a strong "pure 50/50" guessing game that not all characters do as well as Lion. At higher levels of play, this can be very annoying because it can render some option selects useless. However, relying on lows becomes very risky against opponents who can punish low attacks. And at high level of competitive play, everyone should be able to punish low attacks as well as their character can.
• Evasive Attacks/Maneuvers - Lion can be extremely evasive. If he is not the most evasive character in the game, he is one of them. His manual diagonal steps can slide under high attacks, some of his attacks like 4P can slide under any high attack while moving him forward and attacking, his 2K beats special high attacks, moves like 4P+K slide under highs and a lot of mid attacks too (this helps make up for the heavy risk of using this move), his 1K and 1PP both slide back and crouch a bit--enough to beat a lot of attacks where simpler low attacks do not. The Evasive Attacks and the Maneuvers add to his reputation of being the master of BS. He also has an arsenal of low-crushing attacks. Furthermore, Lion is great at whiff punishing and overall spacing.
• BS - Lion does have BS. I already mentioned 2K beats special high attacks. The most blatant form of BS that Lion has is his 2_3P. It has been toned down (in BS levels) from VF5, but it's still the king of BS attacks. There are blatant abare situations where this move will win. For me, I mostly have a feel for it, so I can't tell you the exact situations. But it'll beat out a subset of high and mid attacks, especially things like a high kick, and it seems stance dependent but super BS. This also has to do with Lion having sort of a BS Hit Box lol. Lion's my guy, I like playing Lion a lot, I still call him the King (should say Prince) of BS.

General Launchers (Actually: Lion vs. Jean)
Jean is stronger than Lion when it comes to normal hit launchers. The situation I use 44K the most that is similar to Jean is from a backdash, the way I would use Jean's 46PK after/during a backdash and I see the opponent whiff something. In this case, Lion's backdash punisher is better. For conventional launching, Lion tends to require a Major Counter whereas Jean could rely on a normal hit and a minor Counter.

What's funny is there seems to be an overlap between Jean and Lion. I believe Chibitox enjoys playing Jean, so do I. And it's not just the French Connection btw.
That said, Lion does not quite have something crazy (in one move) like Jean's 33P which can be used so well in so many situations it's crazy. But Lion does have, imo, a better throw game and a lot of good utility. Both characters, to me, play well at all ranges too. And Lion's spacing is awkward because it's slightly "off" which creates more whiff situations from a lot of opponents. Both characters have abusive side-turn games too.

I think Jean has better tools to freight-train an opponent by being in their face and cutting off options and forcing guessing games. Lion can do this too, but I feel it's a bit more risky and you're going to be chipping along the way more than anything before you land your big shot. But Lion seems very adept at encouraging mistakes--depends on how you play.

I think going to the VF.TV forums and looking up the Fist of Legend Tournament and watching Chibitox's last couple of matches shows you a good template of how to play Lion more effectively and efficiently by the numbers and with good intimidation. I will admit, my Lion is much more.... whimsical and likes to go for abusive damage too lol. But not all opponents will let me do that And I have a tendency of telling other players "don't do what I was doing, it's just not the best option--I was having too much fun lol."

Back-Turned Game
Yeah, this has gotten nerfed. IMO, it's always been fun and strong since VF4, heck I used it in VF3tb too. In FS, Lion's options have really been restricted and much of the time it's a poke and bait game.
His BT K is no longer 9 frames, in most situations, an opponent will beat it with even high punch. If you frame-trap properly into Back-Turned though, it can be a nice option and it can combo, but it's rarely a nice option.

I still love 8P+K from BT. This move gives you spacing in many situations, even if your opponent created the BT game. For example, I've gotten Brad players to whiff after their surprise exchange throw, when they normally had guaranteed options (I think?). This move opens a lot of situations up so that you can whiff-punish with most of Lion's BT attacks. Heck, it sometimes opens the opponent up to Turn-Around 66P combo if they really screw up. People who have fought me have gotten to know very well what Lion's BT game can be like.

I have to admit though, when you get your opponent into the mindset of chasing BT Lion (like going after him using 8P+K), it can open up the traditional BT Lion mindgames again and that's fun! Maybe not optimal, maybe too whimsical, but damn it's fun.

44K+G... at first I missed the old one, I mean this used to be 1K+G and 44K+G was the high hopping turn around kick. 44K+G was almost never necessary unless you knew Brad was going to try to sweep or something. But somehow I loved that move. Well now we have 44K+G and it is better imo. This move is deceptive because it frametraps the opponent into Lion's BT game which then gives you a lot of options.
I'll leave my notes on BT game at that, but there's a lot that can be said. His overall BT game has been reduced from previous games, but it's still a very fun part of Lion and it's a good "Lion experience" test in some matches.
Hope this post was either entertaining or helpful ^_^

 

Lion strength comes from mainly 2 things
1)his poking game P 2P 6P 46P+K 66P+K 3K 3/9P+K+GP to name a few he can basicly poke the shit out of you with the best poking game in the game
2)his sideturned game beacuse of his insane poking game lion got an uber insane sideturned game not only that he got tons of ways to ST your ass bt he can also keeps you there forever and get some nasty mixups
those are the main things that makes lion so scary his other aspects like the low game and the oki game are and should be secondary when someone is picking him up

 

Dark Soul? We just played like 10 matches in ranked lol...I wish our connection was better, I was reading a few of your low sweeps and was gonna Rape you with Jean's Knee lol...reaction definitely not quick enough online...ggs taught me a few lion combos I didn't know about, his wall game is pretty ace...

@ChanChai amazing post! I will definitely try and experiment with his BT game. I like to get into it with 44p and his PP8P string that ends in BT, tks for the tip...I definitely have to incorporate his 33p launcher into my game more as well as using his side-turn moves more. Learning Jean/Lion at the same time is tough, but I really do love both characters style, many players are surprised if they beat my lion and I come back with a Jean. I also think he makes my Lion a bit on the aggressive side, but I like that! I used to play by myself with Virtua Fighter 4 but this is the first time I've played anyone online or competitively really. After a week, Jean and Lion are the characters that stood out to me the most. And OMG Chibita made Lion look heavenly against Fuudo!!!! Jean doesn't have as many tricks, but I find him to be consistent, and some of the most rewarding wins. And his guard break move is F'n SWEEEET!!! my last character is Jacky, just because people seem to hate him, and I'm used to that because I mained Ken in SF4, he reminds me of Ken a little bit, so I'm trying to learn him as well...

will reference this thread for the next few days while I experiment. I just want to get out of this War/Vet/Bers/ bracket first, it really bothers me, I hate this green ugly rank!! I want out!!! lol...silly things like this make me addicted to rank'-)

 

Thanks for the kind words ^_^

Well, my post was just responding to the things you asked about and trying to answer your questions. I wasn't particularly suggesting that they are the first focus for your Lion, but they are fun areas to explore! They are just aspects of Lion's game.

But darksoul pointed out some of the things you will want to use to make your Lion very effective. And it sounds like you have a grasp of some of your most important tools and your experience with Jean seems to have given you a strong idea of where the priorities are for effectiveness and applying basics ^_^

So keep that up!

Remember that along with moves like 41236P and K+G that force side-turn, you can also get your opponent to your opponent's side by evading them properly, especially if they do a move that is evade-counterable (has enough Total Frames so that a successful evade from a decent amount of disadvantage will still guarantee some attacks for you). As you fight stronger and stronger opponents, you'll probably see the evade-counterable moves happen less or at least find their mark more because they were well applied. But you will certainly get a lot of openings online and at intermediate levels of play too ^_^

On a personal note, I have only just started practicing and implementing Lion's side-turn game the past couple of weeks. It's huge, and I definitely missed out on a couple months of massive free damage or at least heavy pressure. It's just like Darksoul said or implied, once you're there you can really lock an opponent down decently in side-turn and if they make a mistake, youc an get rewarded wonderfuly.

Also, I have not worked on my wall game at all as I really only use a couple of wall combos. But Darksoul and other players have been, as they should have been, working on Lion's wall-game and reaping the full benefits. It's massive and can end a round so fast. In fact, Darksoul's most recent video in the Lion video thread starts with an excellent sequence against the wall vs. Aoi! I'm starting to work on the wall-game, it's one of the faster ways to learn and do big damage because it's almost universal.

I definitely advocate the quickest paths to damage: strengthen your poking, strengthen your damage, strengthen your side-turn and wall-game too after the first two because they can be the quickest ways to end a round with Lion.

That said, while everyone's working on the clearly good stuff, I tend to have fun doing the more fun stuff Fortunately, I manage to stay decently competitive, but it is time that I start evolving my side-turn game and my wall-game (and my okizeme game). Each of these areas will take a lot of work though, but it's exciting to be working on them now ^_^

P.S. Regarding Lion and Lows... Lows are very punishable... the rule goes both ways... It is the opponent's job to shut off Lion's low game, because he shouldn't let Lion get away with doing it too much. It might pull the opponent out of his comfort zone of standing option selects and fuzzy guards, but shutting off Lion's low game is important. On the flipside, it is Lion's responsibility, if he is using the low mixup, to realize when the opponent is targeting his low attacks--if an opponent starts to shutdown Lion's low game, it is Lion's responsibility to switch it up and readjust the sense of risk/reward in the match in his mix-up options. Of course, if the opponent never shuts out the low game, it's open-season on the lows lol. BOTTOM LINE: IT IS ALWAYS ABOUT WHAT YOUR OPPONENT IS DOING AND YOU MUST ADJUST ^_^

Also, a tip on 2_3P: Play it frame-appropriate. Using it in abare is generally too risky still, though I still do that. As I mentioned above, they reduced the BS factor of this move by a lot. You really should still play frame-appropriate VF, even with Lion. Over time though, especially through casuals and AI practice, you'll probably find situations where it does its magical BS lol. I'll be keeping notes as I see the situations more clearly.

Also, I'm really looking forward to seeing how Lion works out for you! Keep it up

 

what are the properties of Lion's, 8 p+K?
I know it is a decent combo ender, hits low not blocking crouching opponents, and is super quick.
Anything else?

 

Some more stuff about 8P+K ^_^

• Has a special replay (might as well save more practical points for last lol)
• Can hit opponents that are just recently on the ground.
  • Generally things like 66KK are better, but there are times when 8P+K can hit when 66K will not connect with a recently grounded opponent
    • In some cases, you can also use 2P --> 66KK and even 2P --> 8P+K (66KK version is generally better, heh). For situations where you can do this, it's good to "bounce check" with 2P. If the opponent does not tech, then the 2P hits and you can do more damage. However, do consider that using 2P will sacrifice many of your other okizeme options.
  • 8P+K will do more damage in situations where 66KK will only connect with the first Kick.
  • The OTB/OTG (On the Bounce/On the Ground) hits' damages are based on the combo (or non-combo) that knocked the opponent to the ground. For example, if you use a 66KK combo on an opponent and use 66K or 66KK to hit the non-teching opponent OTB/OTG, the scaling will reduce the 66K or 66KK's damage by quite a bit.
• Has good range + easy input + decently fast (15 frames)--making it an easier to use late-stagger hit or whiff-punisher when not thinking clear enough or reacting too slow to use some other more optimal attacks. It's a good "when in doubt" move in these situations.
• Can be used while Back-Turned. In some situations, this can help you avoid some common situations where an opponent throws you behind them and does a combo. It can also be used to help you bait an opponent while your back is turned.

One weird personal tidbit about this move... I'm not very good at okizeme in Final Showdown at the moment (yet, I was pretty happy with my okizeme prior to FS--it's weird because rising attack timing doesn't seem any harder, in fact, probably easier--but I mess up the "attack the rising attack" timing in FS a lot)... For whatever reason, despite only have 2 active hit frames compared to other moves having more, I have an easier time landing this move against rising attacks than other attacks. No idea why, and I think the more common options you see in Lion videos is better recommended, but for some reason 8P+K works okay for me, but I still plan to train to use other attacks because I would like to increase the Reward in these situations.

Anyways, 8P+K is a fun move for me, though one I don't use very much. I do use it quite a bit in Back-Turned situations though And there have been times where I felt I was just barely too slow to do a better whiff-punish so I hit 8P+K right away, but this is a very split-second decision--more relevant to staggers even.

UPDATE: Added section about 2P --> 66KK and similar OTB situations.

 

WOW.. thanks for that info!! So many properties from one move!!

 

Just realized that I need to clarify what I meant in the OTB hit situation for 8P+K.

I meant to say that there are times when 8P+K will do more damage than 66KK attempts when only 66K will hit the bouncing opponent. (However, it might be possible that scaling rules can apply to a situation to make 66KK maybe do less damage than 8P+K)

My original wording made it sound like 8P+K can magically increase its damage, it cannot do that.

 

I haven't touched Lion in VF5FS but i'm guessing the following still apply for :

(i) wall splats near high walls
(ii) ROs over low walls
(iii) fastest way to space the opponent from BT

 

I'm beginning to really wonder why Lion is top tier? He has almost no strings, against a few people who lack any sort of defense yeah, you can repeat set-ups, but against players of equal or better skill level, i feel like I have to mix-up creatively every match!

I don't have a problem with that, but It's frustrating when it feels like your opponent isn't doing the same. Characters will long safe strings with a ton of ways to interrupt your attack like Kage/Van, can play safe poke, but can also mix-up with a routine chain of attacks, the game is basically doing the mix-up for them partially and they can further confuse you with delayed inputs, or going high/low/throw etc...

Against Akira, who basically attacks much like lion with a few safe moves until he opens you up, I have the most rewarding matches ever, but against these heavy string guys (Blaze/Kage/Jacky/Pai/Vannessa) it feels like you have to memorizing there strings before you can even compete with them. Really thinking about changing over to lau as he just seems much more direct with his damage, no b/s, no tricks, just damage.

I'm starting to think you have to have a grasp of most of the cast to have a rewarding time with Lion...whatever it is, i need to level up! quickly...

 

To Omnistalgic,

I am enjoying your enthusiasm in the game and the topics you bring up! I'm posting here my general response to your concerns above. This is just my perspective, others probably have more valid perspectives.

I believe you'll get through this and become stronger when you overcome this obstacle!

Here are some thoughts:

* Play whichever character you feel like, but I'm not sure Lau will fix your problems, but if you enjoy using him more, that definitely solves some problems (generally motivational ones)!

* You will learn to deal with strings in time, and learn that there are very general ways to deal with most strings and cut them off even before they mixup. For the exceptions, you will learn to realize they are exceptions and counting the exceptions might reduce the burden of learning which ones to take a different approach with.

* I could be pretentious in saying this, and I apologize if I am, but I think you are going through a development hurdle. And this is not a bad thing (it's something I think we all go through, I've gone through many and still go through some), this is just an obstacle that takes a more than normal amount of time to get past. And I fully believe you will get past this hurdle and will be stronger when it happens. But something will click. At least that's my experience. You'll also realize even more how strong the basic pokes are. Everyone hears it, everyone knows it, but honestly--it takes a long time to truly understand it. Give it time and experience.

* In VF:
set of strong individual moves >>> set of mixup strings that force guesses mid-string
(This is a gross over-generalization and it should be read as easier/effective/efficient as opposed to greater)

This one takes awhile to realize why it's like this in VF, but to me, this is how it is in VF. You get the greatest mixup potential from individual moves, greater control of the fight, and greater ability to turn around the momentum with the former. The latter is nice and works against beginners, but becomes really hard because the upside of the mixup seldom leads to the damage or upside of the individual move--this is the reason a character like Eileen can be very difficult to use (at least in my humble opinion), she's required to make hard guesses more than a lot of other characters because she has to maintain pressure with flat out better guessing and mindgames and for all the work she does, the damage might not be as big or consistently happening as a strong individual move (but some options make up for that).

Actually, I believe this is true regardless of the character you use in VF. Because VF is a game about forcing decisions on your opponent and making good reads and guesses into decisions when your opponent forces you to. A good sense of what has happened or a good sense of creativity are very helpful assets to help you excel in this game.

Hope this helps, maintain faith in yourself and keep working at it, I believe you can get past this hurdle, but it's really up to you!

However, it may take some time and patience too. Be forewarned, but imo, it's worth it!

 

So after playing 3 hours of VF (my 1st time ever doing that) and having 500 games under my belt I'm so frustrated!!

I played at least 5 Gohs online and it was so frustrating!!!
Any good advice on taking down Gohs?

For some reason I always get caught by his "while crouching opponent" throw!! I've manage to break the throw a handful of times but I get caught 60% of the time.

I think it comes to my lack of knowledge on Goh that I get repeatedly RAPED.
HELP?!