:: VF5 on top again ::

Re: Tekken DR > VF5 again

Sega should simplify VF and we'd get more people playing. Also add some fighting animals and rendered stories. ¬_¬

Come on, does anyone believe Sega will start giving a fuck? We should rather poke Sony to do it. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Re: Tekken DR > VF5 again

what do people think the outcome of vf will be if this gen's iteration dosn't hit it off? Death or just a big lull until 6? Hopefully it wont' come to that though!

 

Re: Tekken DR > VF5 again

indeed the points everyone made are all so true.
as brian said, there's no motivation. none for competitive gamers to want to play VF, and none for SOA to hit the US with something stronger than crappy boxart and a low-tier youtube commercial.

you guys seem to have mentioned pretty much everything that needs to be said. The only thing now is hope.
I'll still be trying to get more people into VF in the boston area. i dunno how well i'll succeed come February, but i've already told the tekken community that they'll never see me again unless they play VF5. hehehehehe!

what's up brian, how's it going?
martin says he's returning to the states during PS3 VF5 release. I dunno why...he's gonna get pwned by me anyways, well, maybe not, 'cause now he's "Twice the man he used to be!"

 

Re: Tekken DR > VF5 again

I'm surprised you guys think it's the community that makes a difference.

I think VF's woes are due to gameplay reasons, that's all. VF5 hasn't changed that much from FT (hence you lose players who have become bored) yet it still has a ridiculously high learning curve so you get very few new players.

DR may not have changed that much from T5 (I don't play it so I'm not sure), but Tekken is far, far, far friendlier to newbies so all the people DR loses due to "sameyness" get replaced by new players. This replacement of old players by new players doesn't happen with VF because the entry barrier is just too high.

I don't blame Sega; It's a pretty difficult situation to deal with. If they make the game easier for newbs, older players who take pride in having overcome the entry barrier will feel disenfranchised and leave. However, if they maintain the complexity and learning curve, they'll never get enough new players.

Sinking money into advertising and tournaments and the "community" will not make newbie players more tolerant of VF's difficult gameplay. All it does is strengthen the devotion of already skilled, already paying consumers. That's not a bad thing, but it's not expanding the market either.

The only way Sega could really expand the market would be to lower the barrier to entry, make the game flashier and, well, in effect, make the game a non-VF game.

 

Re: Tekken DR > VF5 again

If Sega was to produce all the flash the tekken series has (but leave the system still vf), and the sponsorship, events etc don’t you think that would attract more new players?
they would only realise the depth of the system once they really got into it, (I'm assuming in this case new players are playing people of equal "newness").

If Sega made the effort to make the training mode even better and more accessible (yes people are lazy lol) , it probably would attract more people, people play other games to high level too, it's just there are initially attracted to the superfluous elements.

 

Re: Tekken DR > VF5 again

[ QUOTE ]
_optimus_ said:
what do people think the outcome of vf will be if this gen's iteration dosn't hit it off? Death or just a big lull until 6?

[/ QUOTE ]
VF6 arcade only, no distribution in the western world. Too bad.

 

Re: Tekken DR > VF5 again

Makatiel,
That's true. The gameplay and system of VF is definitely a huge part of why it's not competitively popular. Everything does factor in though.
The thing is, we have to take the blow in that case, 'cause if Sega changed how VF is played, tweaked original/fundamental system properites, added ridiculous flash, etc., then we wouldn't have the same game that made it so great to us in the first place.

 

Re: Tekken DR > VF5 again

I think VF's popularity will come down to the following:

Online: Will lag and latency hurt the game? Probably. But will having online actually do more harm than good for the VF community? Is it better to have it than to not have it?

Arcade: Either Sega releases it down here, or the arcade owners find a different alternative. A good alternative would be to just pick up a 20 GB PS3, a couple of joysticks, buy a cheap TV (a nice one, but nothing too expensive) and figure out a pricing system. Since VF5 will probably get patches via PS3 online, I could definitely see this happening. Arcades are dying here anyways, and having consoles in them may keep them alive for a little longer (and who knows, maybe even have them make a comeback).

Tournaments: Like everyone else said, tournaments would be a huge boost to VF. Evo 2k7 will be coming up soon, and if they get VF5, it would be a great opportunity to get some players interested (maybe even pro players from other series). The one thing would be to have a really good showing for VF5. If no one goes, then they won't have it for evo 2k8.

Marketing: This one is obvious. Sega needs to go all out in this area. That includes putting money into evo 2k and other tourneys (prize money and other goodies). If they put a good amount of money into, say, evo 2k7, and just have a ton of VF5 players (from Japan for instance) to come and play and have VF5 advertisements everywhere and HD tv's with only VF5 playable on them...

I'm sure they could get more people playing VF that way. /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

Re: Tekken DR > VF5 again

[ QUOTE ]
Makatiel said:

I'm surprised you guys think it's the community that makes a difference.

I think VF's woes are due to gameplay reasons, that's all. VF5 hasn't changed that much from FT (hence you lose players who have become bored) yet it still has a ridiculously high learning curve so you get very few new players.

DR may not have changed that much from T5 (I don't play it so I'm not sure), but Tekken is far, far, far friendlier to newbies so all the people DR loses due to "sameyness" get replaced by new players. This replacement of old players by new players doesn't happen with VF because the entry barrier is just too high.

I don't blame Sega; It's a pretty difficult situation to deal with. If they make the game easier for newbs, older players who take pride in having overcome the entry barrier will feel disenfranchised and leave. However, if they maintain the complexity and learning curve, they'll never get enough new players.

Sinking money into advertising and tournaments and the "community" will not make newbie players more tolerant of VF's difficult gameplay. All it does is strengthen the devotion of already skilled, already paying consumers. That's not a bad thing, but it's not expanding the market either.

The only way Sega could really expand the market would be to lower the barrier to entry, make the game flashier and, well, in effect, make the game a non-VF game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree with this post. VF's popularity or lack there of is more of a gameplay issue more than anything else. The thing that's great about VF is probably what hurts it. It's a solid fighting game... and that's it... Casual players in the west aren't really interested in just a solid fighting game, with very little gimmicks, that's gonna take you more than a year to actually understand, let alone be good at it.

Sega can promote VF all they want but the majority of people will flock to the other fighting games for the simple fact that they're easier to pick up and full of gimmicks with wacky characters. Tomonubu Itagaki even though I think he can be a complete moron at times, figured out that in the US it's really not about how deep the game is, because depth is invisible. You have to play the game in order to realize that it's deep but something else other than that has to make you buy that game first. On the other hand, you don't have to play a game to realize that it looks great and cool. In the west, as far as fighting games goes, visuals seems to sell more games than depth. DOA looks great, has people falling off buildings, cute chicks, CG endings and a whole bunch of other little gimmicks that casual gamers can appreciate right off the bat without getting too indepth with the game and eventually those gamers might become hardcore players but their introduction to the game is more welcoming than VF. Mortal Kombat also does the same thing with its gimmicks that sets it appart and so does Tekken & SC with all the flash and wacky characters, lasers etc... VF doesn't have anything that sets it too much appart from those other franchises gameplaywise. The only thing that set it appart, but is not gameplay related, was custom items and Namco copied that in T5 so that's no longer a unique VF feature anymore. Gameplaywise the only thing that still sets it appart from it's competitors is depth but the majority of people don't know that and probably don't care, they just see two characters fighting, nothing special just another fighting game. The dude who doesn't know much about fighting games will have to either choose between VF or the other games on the market with all the crazy shenanigans. And most of the time they'll choose the games with the shenanigans.

It's more of a cultural issue more than anything. Japans overall mentality and their definition of fun when it comes to fighting games is different from the west, that's why VF's always been popular there. As far as DR's popularity over VF5, I think just like everyone else mentioned : they're just bored, I believe SEGA got too greedy with VF4's success and should've stop at EVO. FT made VF5 seem more like another upgrade than a full blown sequel (in Japan). VF4 featured custom items which was something refreshing and new, made you think how come nobody thought about that before and they also changed the VF3 fighting engine which also made it seem fresh even though they went back to the VF2 style but VF5 for some reason doesn't get that same vibe, mainly due to the fact that it didn't bring anything too revelutionary to the table. But it can definitly recover over there I'm not worrying about VF in Japan. But as for the US, Europe and the rest of the world AM2 is going to have to find a way of setting VF appart from it's competitors whether it's with flash, tna or whatever they can come up with because their current formula isn't working so it's probably time for a change. The way I see it is that Team Ninja and the Tekken team... have a better understanding and idea of foreign markets than AM2 which on the other hand has a better understanding on how to make the game but that's not necessarily gonna make it a hit.

 

Re: Tekken DR > VF5 again

But getting hardcore players from other fighting game communities will greatly help VF's own community.

After getting those key players, I believe everything after that will just sorta fall into place. Once those top players are playing, then others are sure to follow. Just look at SF 3S. No one was playing that, but then a bunch of people started preaching the game's worth, and BOOM, it's the next best thing. I think the same needs to be done with VF. More players need to tell others, basically, of how awesome it is; more people will play it, it'll be in more tourneys, there will be more incentive for Sega to bring the arcade version here and there will be more human competition. At least, that's how I see it.

 

Re: Tekken DR > VF5 again

You can't compare 3S to VF alot of people even though they never played 3S most likely played SF2 before and loved it so jumping into 3S seems less of a challenge than telling people to come play VF. And again 3S is a relatively flashy game too. Totally different scenarios.

 

Re: Tekken DR > VF5 again

I don't think learning curve has anything to do with it, VF is a deep game but if you look at it, the system is rather simple to understand. 3 buttons and 8 directions. Maybe it's because I come from DoA which is very similar to VF that it's not hard for me to assimilate the ideas behind the game. Free/Punch/Kick = Guard/Punch/Kick. There is still the same movement commands (now I get a back crouch dash and back jumping normal jumping). Evade replaces Counter Hold as the essential defensive tool to dealing with excessive attacking. Jab is the fast move generally, low jab beats jab and is relatively fast/safe.

The big difference comes when you apply Throw escapes, ETE, TEG, and open/closed stance combos. Otherwise the games have staggering similarity. Considering the amazing tutorials that come with VF I do not think getting into it is the hard part.

I think the #1 reason VF is not getting there is cause people who buy it have no one to play. Quest mode is fun but it should not replace humans. When I found people who play the game here in california it kept me interested. DoA players stay DoA players cause they have XBL and can play almost anyone in the world at the click of a button. VF's biggest problems root from it not being either online or in large arcade distribution. Unless something crazy happens we know arcade distribution is a lost cause, but that raises up the question of online play reliability.

In the DoA community the question of weither or not online play should be taken seriously almost killed the community a year ago when DoAU came out. I kind of have a hunch that the same thing will happen if VF gets online play cause online play brings to the table so many players from so many different regions/backgrounds. However the DoA community solved this by simply going with the "Online is okay for casual play, but it is not taken seriously in rankings and competitive play". I'm sure people who play VF don't play competitively 24/7 so online play will satisfy that hunger for human play that people desire so much in VF. In all honesty, even though I dispise online play in DoA, online play MADE the DoA community. Players like Perfect Legend, Master, and Black Mamba would never exsist without it, and none of the tournaments would have gathered enough people. It has it's bad points which can be ugly but coming from a community where the "online experiment" worked I can say in the end it only helps.

 

Re: Tekken DR > VF5 again

Tekken player come, try VF and say (exactly in this order):

1st: Oh god! Multiple trow escapes! How avesome!
2nd: Oh god! What was that clash into my throw?? (still better then crush through throws with striking attacks in VF4 for him)
3rd: Oh god. What a stupid system of sidesteping (still better that he can now cancel evade into ff or bb dash that that crouchdash cancel in VF4 for him)
4th: Oh god! I am really good fighting game competitor (ya know, he plays Tekken for few years, he's the king, nigga!) and you beat me like a moron!
5th: Oh god... This is so stupid. Maybe VF is good game, but... Sorry, i will stick with Tekken.
6th: And tekken have a better graphic, ya moron!

Then he leavs and you will never see him again. This is exactly described how 99% of Tekken players from around me react on VF, if I try to make them to play it

 

Re: Tekken DR > VF5 again

I agree with you on all of your points Onistompa.

I feel that another big reason VF never really caught on was the exclusivity to those failed Sega consoles in the past. VF4 was on PS2 which exposed it to a much larger, more mainstream audience. Those people are aware the franchise now, so now it's Sega's turn to promote VF5 like never before.

I understand people making efforts to build the community, but this is Sega AM2's product first and foremost. When the company pretends that you don't exist, there's only so much the community can do. Where was FT on PS2? Why do we have to import the VF5 high grade stick? Why is there no package deal with the American version like with T5? All of these things just contribute to the general attitude that nobody plays VF in America, nobody shows up for tourneys etc. How do you get this game added to tournaments when the company isn't doing anything to generate excitement about the game?

They have an uphill battle if they want this game to succeed in the west. Xbox360 is seriously lacking good fighting games. It pisses me off that VF5 is PS3 exclusive when I see the great things Microsoft did in supporting DOA4. They should be doing this for VF5! The fact of the matter is, VF5 is exclusive to a $600 console that we can't even find in stores right now. The PS3 library lineup will most likely be very crowded with Tekken, SC, etc. so AM2 needs to give themselves some breathing room on xbox360. It makes perfect sense to me, but maybe I'm just crazy.

 

Re: Tekken DR > VF5 again

Ya, I don't see why Sega can't sorta "experiment" with an online mode for the US release of VF5. I understand they don't want the series to get a bad rep (i.e. for crap online, and they want their game to play perfectly), which is fine, but, as evidence suggests, Sega doesn't care what we think, so "experiment" away!

The Japanese version doesn't have to get online, and I'm sure they won't mind since their arcade scene is huge. And with "experimenting" with online for the US version, Sega can learn some things for when they get serious with online play (VF6?) and bring it to Japan. In the meantime, the VF community will benefit greatly, even if the game plays like crap online (compared to offline at least).

For the purists out there, it's not like it's going to be a mandatory feature or anything. You don't have to go online if you don't want to. There won't be any tournaments online either (at least, nothing serious; maybe a few casual tournaments for fun).

 

Re: Tekken DR > VF5 again

[ QUOTE ]
DRE said:so AM2 needs to give themselves some breathing room on xbox360. It makes perfect sense to me, but maybe I'm just crazy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, well, as we know, Sega really doesn't give a crap about us. Considering the PS3 has already sold more than the 360 in Japan kind of made the decision an easy one for Sega. Of course, when they announced it for PS3, PS3 wasn't out, but I'm sure they looked at the 360 sales in Japan ( /versus/images/graemlins/shocked.gif), and decided on the PS3. They could have done a multi-platform release though...

But maybe they are secretly planning an online mode and they don't want to split up the VF community? /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Edit: That, and the fact that Sony probably paid them off.

 

Re: Tekken DR > VF5 again

I think we've already had this discussion with VF4 and it's two different expansion packs or whatever....

Online VF while it might flourish in the U.S. and even European videogame scene...having an online Virtua Fighter 5 would most likely hinder the attraction of playing at the arcade in Japan, hurting the arcade scene for Virtua Fighter, which is Sega's primary focus with Virtua Fighter still. Why people waste so much money in an arcade is beyond me. A couple thousand matches in the arcade and you might as well buy a PS3 and get unlimited play in the comfort of your own home for free once you purchase the game and console. But it's such a cultural phenomenon that people still go to the arcade.

But even then......Super Turbo has been online for quite sometime, whether it be via X-box Live or Kailera and it still seems to have a good arcade scene in Japan, maybe not the scale of Virtua Fighter, but I wouldn't necessarily attribute Super Turbo's lower popularity in the arcade as being because it has online play. In fact it's popularity in the U.S. still after a decade is because of online play. VF6 needs to be online.....



As for people not wanting to buy a game because of it's depth, that's total bullshit. I'm sorry but deep games can be and often are big sellers. Long involved games, especially franchise games likes VF, sell like crazy. Gran Turismo, Warcraft/Starcraft....Final Fantasy??? All of these games aren't just pick up and play and do actually take investment in time. You can't get away with just button mashing in Starcraft.....even the average player has spent countless hours playing the game. And why was Starcraft so sucessful, ummm Battle.Net anyone?? Sega can add as much dumb fluffy shit to Virtua Fighter as they want as long as it doesn't interfere with gameplay no one will care if it makes VF more popular.

 

Re: Tekken DR > VF5 again

What??? VF 5 in PS3 no have online play?

 

Re: Tekken DR > VF5 again

[ QUOTE ]
Tekkendero said:

What??? VF 5 in PS3 no have online play?

[/ QUOTE ]
Correct, "no have" online play. /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

Re: Tekken DR > VF5 again

[ QUOTE ]
EmpNovA said:
As for people not wanting to buy a game because of it's depth, that's total bullshit. I'm sorry but deep games can be and often are big sellers. Long involved games, especially franchise games likes VF, sell like crazy. Gran Turismo, Warcraft/Starcraft....Final Fantasy??? All of these games aren't just pick up and play and do actually take investment in time. You can't get away with just button mashing in Starcraft.....even the average player has spent countless hours playing the game. And why was Starcraft so sucessful, ummm Battle.Net anyone?? Sega can add as much dumb fluffy shit to Virtua Fighter as they want as long as it doesn't interfere with gameplay no one will care if it makes VF more popular.

[/ QUOTE ]

We're talking about depth in fighting games. None of the examples you came up with are fighting games. Madden, GTA, Final Fantasy... all those games have great depth and make a whole lot of money but completely irrelevant to what we're talking about. Depth is a great selling point in Japan when it comes to fighting games but not necessarily in the west. You have to reel people in first with something other than that and eventually they'll realize how deep of a game it is but first you have to catch their attention in some kind of way.