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Version C Tier List

Discussion in 'Arcade' started by Jide, Nov 4, 2007.

  1. _Denkai_

    _Denkai_ Well-Known Member

    I recall Shun being S+ in Version B because of his sabaki. In Version C his sabaki now hits high and has slightly more disadvantage. He moved down quite a bit on the tier list just because of that one change I think. I do believe that shun still has better tools then Lau but I believe Lau is capable of doing more dmg easily (namely lau 6p+k which is safe and can do 70pts of dmg). Shun can do that as well with chowan but he needs drinks before hand to up his dmg.
     
  2. smb

    smb Well-Known Member

    fulan, i am being sarcastic. I know he doesn't have a full circular mid, but i also don't play blindfolded, nor do i search out kyus. so, there.
     
  3. Rodnutz

    Rodnutz Well-Known Member

    PSN:
    XxRodnutzxX
    XBL:
    XxRodnutzxX
    Srider you might be right. I do have Akira mentality when playing Kage. I guess I need to apply a little more subtlety and tricks than trying to land that big combo.
     
  4. tonyfamilia

    tonyfamilia Well-Known Member

    Myke, everybody knows certain DM attacks are better than others. You're one of the few who believe that because they all have their "pros and cons" that they are on the same level of effectiveness anyway. I agree with you on the "pros and cons" theory but think about it: If Move-A has more pros and less cons than Move-B, wouldn't that make Move-A better than Move-B?
    Or are you saying they all have the same amount of "pros and cons"?

    The consistency of Kage's 9K+G isn't that great </div></div> Compared to what? The comparison was Lau's 9P, you know, that move that goes OVER low sweeps and DOES NOT connect as much as Kage's 9K+G against low attacks.

    Yes, I'll give you that but let's not forget to take into account the huge range difference between these moves.

    Movelist comparison is how some people select their characters.
    I agree that "characters are not meant to be the same" but, again, if Character-A has a better throw/attack game than Character-B, ummm, sorry bro, Character-A is stonger than Character-B.

    "Let's see: more options that are faster, safer and more damaging, hmm, I think Character-A is my guy"
    For some players, the choice is that simple. *Disclaimer: I am NOT saying that is why ANYBODY here who plays with Kage has chosen Kage as their main.*

    Dude, no. He might have done a good job at distilling Kage's weaknesses but not his strengths.
     
  5. Gernburgs

    Gernburgs Well-Known Member

    Gernburgs agrees with Tony...

    That video that KOD posted is the exact BS I'm talking about though. Where the Kage player does a TFT to you but doesn't go for max damage and just tries to jab you through the air as far as possible to get a ring out (and that Eileen player really was basically in the middle of the ring.) Go ahead and do the TFT to me, totally fine with me. But don't do the TFT and then do a weak-ass 10dmg combo just to ring me out for the auto-win, that's cheap. That's the definition of cheap in VF5 to me...

    And Kages DMPK is super fast and pushes back so looking at the frame data alone is misleading. Moves with push-back basically reduce your disadvantage because your opponent has to close some distance before they can hit you. For example, with Lion again, his 44P+K literally gives you like +20 frames to play with but because your opponent is reeling back and you have to dash in pretty far to hit them it's actually VERY hard to combo off of it unless their back is right against the wall.

    1. It's the stat advantages in his move-list that Kage has. Such as the subtle differences between similar moves between him and Lau as posted above.

    2. Kage has tricky moves, tricky animations and it can be very hard to tell which move is actually coming at you until it's too late. A good example is his dashing sweep and his move where he turns BT and does a forward flip that hits you mid. Both of these moves look very similar until it's almost too late to react.

    3. TFT and EASY-ass ring outs...

    4. Good throw game in addition to the TFT with a NASTY catch throw and other deceptive throws from stance and BT...

    5. Intangible advantage. The above advantages combine into another overall intangible advantage because he has so many options you have to honor. By honor I mean change your game subtly to defend against the many dangerous options you know he has...

    Once again, this is ONLY MY OPINION but I'm absolutely sure there are many players out there who agree with me.
     
  6. Auvii

    Auvii Well-Known Member

    XBL:
    Auvii
    Unfortunately I cant chime in on this as I have only played several Kages and mostly have no problem with them. I will say this argument is classic and I am just waiting for that dude that gets banned every other month to jump in and spam!
     
  7. TheWorstPlayer

    TheWorstPlayer Well-Known Member

    Yes folks you heard it here! The Shoutbox Shakedown the only
    continuous online VF tournament on VFDC. You can play a few of
    the most dedicated players on VFDC and one of the worst. The
    SHOUTBOX SHAKEDOWN! From the comfort of your very own living room!
    *See Sig
     
  8. Sebo

    Sebo Well-Known Member Content Manager Taka Content Manager Jeffry

    PSN:
    Sebopants
    Hmmmm...

    <span style='font-size: 8pt'>*thinks that X vs. Kage thread should be in order...*

    *also thinks that X vs. X threads should exist for all characters*

    *is disappointed*[/size]</span>
     
  9. smb

    smb Well-Known Member

    Also,
    Because I use him as my main, I vote we move Lei Fei down to a C Tier, this will make me feel better about myself and my skills when I win matches. If we can agree to this, I promise to stop attacking on stagger, as part of the negotiation process. thanks.
     
  10. Gernburgs

    Gernburgs Well-Known Member

    Who, Shang? I never ran across him but I read his posts in the "Kage is So Broken" thread. I really must say he is one of the most brutal flame-masters I've ever come across online. I don't think anyone wants to go head up in a flame war with the Shangster.

    He's probably better at flaming people on internet boards than he is at VF and he's pretty good LOL...
     
  11. Dennis0201

    Dennis0201 Well-Known Member

    Back to the topic,
    can anyone recommend the Lau players??
    I strongly push " BETABOW" !!

    Moreover, any good Kage player?
    I push "Monty" and "Myke", both of them are very tough to deal~
     
  12. ice-9

    ice-9 Well-Known Member

    The reason why Kage players jump into threads like this is because there are people like Greenburgs who want to feel better about losing to Kages by pointing to a tier list. This is exactly why I play Jeffry - to shut people like him up.

    Anyway, the comparison between Kage's and Lau's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is RIDICULOUS. I even thought it was sarcastic at first. Those two moves are used in completely different manners; Kage's is to get damage on anticipated counter hit, Lau's is to get damage when the opponent whiffs. (Hint: Lau can continue to /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif after.)

    BTW while Kage is my #1, Lau is my #2; I have played both plenty and I think both are plenty strong. A move-to-move comparison is just not very helpful because characters are played in different ways and that is true for Kage and Lau. Lau doesn't have a Kage /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif comparison move, but he doesn't need one. Does Kage have an equivalent to Lau's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif? Heck, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif?

    I am glad to see players like Srider and Konjou trying Kage out. When playing against good Kage players, Kage might seem really strong...but when you play him yourself on a serious level you quickly realize that the character has his limitations.

    Overall, and ESPECIALLY at our level of play/skill, VF is a very balanced game. To complain about character strength/weakness is just sour grapes.
     
  13. KrsJin

    KrsJin Well-Known Member

    Mmm, I would say Lau's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif can be used like Kage's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /devil's advocate.

    Nah, I agree whole-heartily with ice-9 on this one. On the entire post.
     
  14. TheWorstPlayer

    TheWorstPlayer Well-Known Member

    Jeffry is low tier...but he will rape you <3
     
  15. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

    PSN:
    Myke623
    XBL:
    Myke623
    Sorry Tony, but this is the exact type of nonsense I object to when people embark on tier discussions, and/or start to compare two seemingly similar moves between characters, and complete ignore (or are unaware) of their context and application.

    If you're going to try to argue that Kage's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is better than Lau's then I can only cry! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Not because I think you're wrong, but purely because of how you reached that conclusion.

    Looking just at the hit level, Guard/NH/CH properties while ignoring other facts is very narrow minded and gives a false impression to those who don't know better. This is what I have a problem with.

    In a Normal Hit situation, who cares that Lau is -4 when the followup /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif series is a natural combo, and dishes 40~50pts of guaranteed damage, with a variety of ending options.

    What does Kage get on Normal Hit? 21pts and +4 guessing game which the opponent can fuzzy guard.

    What about Recovery Counter Hit? This is where the two moves really differ. Lau can Combo with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif into a slam for up to 70pts damage. Whereas Kage gets 26pts damage and +5 -- a guessing game the opponent can still fuzzy! The Recovery Counter Hit situation should clue you in on why comparing these moves is an apples and oranges situation. They have very different applications, and ice-9 summed them up very well (Kage's is a nitaku tool, Lau's is a punisher).

    Let's not forget that Lau has more options after his Upper since it leads into his standing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif series. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif also forces guard. Again, even though they share the same command input and exe speed these are two very different attacks which is why comparing them for the purposes of determining which is better, is futile.

    To answer your other comments about weighing up the pros and cons between moves, well, what has consistently failed in these discussions is that nobody is able to completely enumerate the pros and cons in their comparison. Instead people make sweeping generalisations and statements that "X is better than Y", with either very weak, false or total lack of justification.

    And finally, regarding character selection:

    Yeah, but, do such characters exist in VF that you can objectively state A is "better" than B? I say no! I think that VF is balanced enough to prevent this from occurring. (I know its prevalent in other fighting games though.)

    If people were really choosing their character based on movelist comparisons then I would be surprised and disappointed, because it's totally the wrong approach to the game. And the fact is, most beginners to VF don't know how to fully interpret the data in a VF movelist anyway!

    I would like to think that selection is predominantly determined by the character's fit and appeal to you, their playing style, general accessibility, and ultimately enjoyment! These things can be difficult/impossible to quantify, and for many players the character selection process is typically one of trial and error, and not a mathematical comparison on paper.
     
  16. Manjimaru

    Manjimaru Grumpy old man

    PSN:
    manjimaruFI
    XBL:
    freedfrmtheReal
    While true, it certainly doesnt help that far too often frame-situation in VF5 doesnt even apply because of hitbox issues. "Yea I got +4 but so what since my fast attacks arent even connecting and I get launched by this slow launcher". The more I have become aware of this, the more you hear me moaning. Sega should definitely do something about this in R. Plus theres the online that misleads beginners!

    ps. I know I play Akira and Sarah, not because they would be too good, but because I enjoy playing them and watching them being played. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
     
  17. Pai_Garu

    Pai_Garu Well-Known Member

    Please just stop accusing people of complaining, as that is not the point of the discussion. This is a good example of useful information being passed off as rant and complaint when it's not. The discussion stemmed from someone wanting to know why Lau is not given as high of a rank on the tier list, and people are explaining why to support the published data.

    I'm not gonna do a point by point break down about Myke and Ice-9's post but here are some biggies.

    Upper is not mainly used for punishing whiffs, and Lau players will do 2_3P6P instead of the PPP series as the followup, yes it gives you a decent amount of dmg, it puts Lau in a high disadvantageous situation (sure Kage has no options at +4, Lau has dmg and goes in -6 and can't fuzzy). People can make the same 'narrow minded' argument in leaving that part out. Lau's P series also does NOT force guard anymore. It's been that way since FT iirc. Also, I'm not just trying Kage out, been playing him regularly for half year in the arcades now, so some of their differences are pretty obvious to me now.

    Myke and Ice-9 are right in saying that Lau and Kage's moves are used in different situation, so it's not fair in doing comparisons of the same moves. While I also wouldn't personally do an exact comparison, and this is why I only pointed out what useful tools Kage has access to and that Lau does not. This is the basis of my argument, that Kage has much tools for a variety of situations with high utility but trading off in dmg compared to Lau, who doesn't have nearly the same amount of tools with equal utility, but are potentially more damaging. In the grand scheme of things, Kage is on a higher tier than Lau due to this. I still think there is merit in people simply comparing moves in itself just to get an idea.

    If we want to compare moves used in similar situations, that's fine too.

    Counter hit for damage
    Lau - 6P+K - Slower, hits less often, more possible damage.
    Kage - 2_3P - Much faster, hits more often, less possible damage.

    Punishing whiffs (Crouch)
    Lau - 2_3P6P - 15 frames high attack, more dmg, -6 on guard.
    Kage - PP4P - 11 frames high attack, less dmg, +1 on guard.

    You can do throws as well, but I'm not going to go into that discussion as Kage easily beats Lau's throw selection.

    Evasive mid launcher
    Lau - 4P+K - Slow mid with some high level evasiveness, more damage requires hit check.
    Kage - 3P - Slow mid with very good high level evasiveness, less damage requires hit check.

    Short range evasive attack
    Lau - 1P+K - 23 frames exe mid, no combo, -9 on guard.
    Lau - 8KK - 24 frames exe mid, inconsistent evasive ability, second part must be hit checked, -6 on guard, no combo.
    Kage - 44K - 15 frames exe high, good follow up combo, +1 on guard, knocks down on any hit.

    Jumping attack
    Lau - 9P - Faster exe mid, consistently whiffs over low kicks, short range, dis adv on guard.
    Lau - 9K - Slow exe mid, used at long range, -15 on guard.
    Kage - 9K+G - Slower exe mid, more consistent performance, can be used at both short and long range, even on guard.

    Whiffed evade (also +14) tool
    Lau - 46P - 14 frame high, good dmg with combo, -5 on guard.
    Kage - PP4P - 11 frame, less dmg with no combo just +3, +1 on guard.

    Low attack
    Lau - 2K+G - Half circular, knocks down on any hit, no combo, -18 on guard.
    Kage - 44K+G - Linear, longer range, combo on CH only, leaves kage backturned, -12 on guard.

    Mid range whiff punisher
    Lau - 3P+K - 20 frames mid, combo
    Kage - 6K+G - 21 frames mid, combo


    So yeah, maybe someone else can do a commentary on all these. I don't want to do it cause Kage players will just claim that I'm complaining. I don't know what is the deal comparing Lau's 6PP and Kage, as Lau players don't use 6PP as much same as Kage players don't go into stance after 6P with Kage. I also can't really think of a situation where Kage and Lau have equivalents for Lau's 3PPK. It needs to be more clearly defined as 3PPK use is very specific, unlike the moves I've listed previous for Kage.

    If you simply want to compare number of moves, Kage also wins by default due to more moves. I'm not going to go into details about their PK->stance game...

    I think I've already touched on this before. Lau trades utility in most cases for damage. So he lands much less launchers in comparison, but deals bigger damage when they land.
    Kage has much higher utility in most of his moves, but he trade them for power. Still, they are very potent in terms of damage.

    For example:
    Lau's 6P+K can typically get about 75-79 dmg
    Kage's 2_3P can typically get about 64-67 dmg

    Honestly if you play both Kage and Lau, you will see that the odds is heavily in Kage's favor. This is why the arcadia tier list is based on the character's movelist, and their moves' usefulness/frequency they hit.


    This statement can be applied to any fighting game, that they are all 'balanced enough' that mathematical comparison is not the whole picture. I really think it's a case of denial to say that VF is balanced so that one character does not have advantage over another. Sure, it comes down to the player's choices, but character match up is a huge factor in high level play. To deny this is simply a case of blind faith.
     
  18. TheWorstPlayer

    TheWorstPlayer Well-Known Member

    Wow a VF player with book knowledge actually admitting this.
    Wheres the rapture? And WARS MAH COOKIE for winning with Jeffry?
    (I kid just jabbin those top tier players /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif
     
  19. Gernburgs

    Gernburgs Well-Known Member

    Thank you Srider for a VERY elegant explanation.

    @Ice-9, me complaining about Kage may make me feel better about losing to him but it's painfully obvious that you also want to deny that Kage is top tier just a vehemently if not more so.

    You claim I want to feel better about losing to Kage... You obviously want to feel better about winning with Kage, what's the difference???

    It offends your personal idea about yourself and your ability because you want to believe that you're really, really good and you don't have any type of edge. So you accuse me of whining to try to take the air out of my point (which is really undeniable in my mind, Kage is top tier. The top Japanese players agree on that, why don't you? What do they know that you don't???) That makes you feel like you are better at the game, because admitting that the character you use is powerful would indicate that you have a handicap, and thus, aren't as good as you say...

    That's why you want to put me off as ranting... It pretty much has everything to do with your ego, not any actual or factual breakdown of the game. I could give you every fact in the world and let you talk to the top players in Japan. I could let them tell you, but you would still deny it because it would be a giant blow to your fragile VF ego... You don't want to admit Kage is powerful because, somehow in your mind, it calls your skills into question, however slightly (extremely slightly which is why you should just admit it)...

    The truth is the truth, you are in the great minority in your opinion of Kage not being top tier. Oddly that minority group seems to consist of one type of person only, <u>Kage players!</u>
     
  20. Hyunster

    Hyunster Well-Known Member

    Many VFers have this mythical cultish notion that VF is a perfect and balanced game. It's in sharp contrast to players of other fighting games who more or less accept that their games are not perfectly balanced, and concentrate on how to do deal with it rather.

    VF1 and 2 (especially 2.0 version) were so broken and so unbalanced it was not even funny. They were probably more unbalanced than Tekken ever were. But back then people just accepted that you had to work harder with weaker characters. Things got of course much better in the later games. It's clear that VF5 is much more balanced than VF1&2 or the Tekken series. However it's ridiculous to think anything is perfect.
     

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