Version C Tier List

I'd just throw that robot.

Tiers will exist so long as fighting games do. VF's are so shallow though I see why some would say they don't exist, but, they do.

 

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2097/1854696604_cc70f90936_o.jpg


This is Arcadia Magazine Dec 2007 ver C rankings if anyone can translate...

 

Sorry. I thought this one was newer.

 

No they won't. Tiers don't exist at all. If all the best players suddenly started learning Brad and Lion they'd be presumed to be the best (by the self-same utter idiots that say Lei-Fei or Eileen are the best).

The only kind of 'low tier' that Lion is is this: He always goes low and he often brings tears to your eyes...

 

Tiers do exist.

Again, it's not that low tiered players can't win (especially in VF) -- see Chibita and every other killer Lion in JPN. It's just the ease with which their moves can garner wins (i.e. speed, priority, damage). For example, Sarah has to work *hard* to get damage; but she can still dominate and win. She's low tier but not handicapped.

It's about the inherent tools of a character and how those tools make it easier/less easy to win. For Western VF, tiers are kind've up in the air though... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

You're either kidding yourself VF3beatsVF4 or thinking tiers are something else other than what they are.

Tier lists do not dictate which characters will win. They merely look at advantages and disadvantages characters have when matched up with other characters. If all the top players switched to Brad and Lion and started whooping people, the chart that Akai has posted a few times displaying tournament results would change, but the tier lists would not.

All fighting games have tiers. There is not one perfectly balanced fighter that exists where every character is the same tier. There most likely won't ever be so long as there are two or more characters in the game with different moves. Having a tier list, does not make the game bad. And with a game like VF, where they make a conscious effort to balance the game as much as they can, the tiers given are extremely shallow, especially compared to other fighters.

 

KrsJin is right on the money. Unless every character is exactly the same in every way, moves, speed, even down to the color of the costume, certain characters will always have an advantage over others. This doesn't mean that they automatically win every match, it simply means they have an advantage.

Tier lists (good tier lists, that is) group the characters with similar levels of "advantage" over the characters below them. Even within the same tier level, there is a "better" character (if there is more than one), simply due to the fact that both (or all) characters aren't 100% identical.

 

no tiers means the game is balanced perfectly, wich is impossible since the game is developed by humans.

 

Well could you show me this super computer that works all the tiers out then? There may as well be no such thing as tiers as there is not a superhuman who can play as all characters perfectly who could tell you this. So this Arcadia magazine may say that Sarah or Lion are the weakest, but in reality they could be the best.

Yes, and the tier lists are also made up by humans. Therefore may be complete bullshit and be judged on the wrong factors. A certain characters low sweep may be weak and slow to execute, but the animation sequence may trick a player subconsciously - how do they judge this? They can't.

I'm not really saying that tiers don't exist, because of course the game cannot be perfectly balanced. What my point is, is that the gamers that discover this stuff can, in no way, be right. Tiers may as well not exist, as there can never be proof of which character is the best or the worst. The characters do have a pecking order but there are far too many variables and listing what one person/group thinks is a complete waste of time and should never be believed.

 

OMG. Lion could be the best.

 

Wait...VF3BeatsVF4...seems familiar...

Oh right, you're the tool who started that huge thread where you bitched and complained about Lei-Fei and Vanessa. If I recall correctly it included such gems as you stating, IN THE SAME PARAGRAPH, that there are no such things as tiers but that some characters have advantages over others.

Your intelligence amazes me yet again.

 

Nope. There's the uber-secret, perfectly balanced 2-player competitive game just recently developed by humans:

JAN KEN PON

 

Jan Ken Pwned for the win...

Tier listings give a general idea of who can own whom if the best players on the planet picked said characters.

There's no mathematical equation, but that Aoi you mentioned won't win since you can catch throw her and she's raped sex0red... Can't break a catch throw ^_^

I think those tier listings make perfect sense. Having Eileen up there makes my head spin though. Her moves look so useless and am I alone when I say that her damage output should NOT BE S-tier worthy? [she's 1/4th the size of Jeffrey, yet she can do damage ON HIS LEVEL?!] Using strikes no less, her throws are garbage...

 

There really are mathematical questions of a sort that were used to generate these tier lists. The tiers are constructed mainly from comparing frame data of the different characters. You can basically read it as saying who has the fastest launchers, and what's the max damage that can be dealt with a single combo off those launchers. It's of course, a bit more complicated given the existence of throws, sabakis, w/e else... but that's all it is... how easy is it to punish other players mistakes.

As for eileen... I've been told by some japanese players that her Ver.B S tier ranking was entirely because her PP6P was overpowered... it was essentially safe on block, and forced a nitaku situation if it hit. It's actually been nerfed in Ver.C, but it's still a good move. And I don't know what you're talking about... look at her and Jeffry's combos in the wiki, she does average 50 dmg, 70 max or so... he does average 80 damage combos, 120 max.

 

Her crumple combos do basically the same damage (71-75) as jeff's crumple combos on MC (80) . . . not including the damage from the staggers that set up her crumple combos; this is slightly asinine considering the difference in character styles (rushdown vs big risk / reward). Jeff doesn't really have any non-tr'able combos that do over half life from anything other than wallhit.

 

I think your're estimating wrong... check the combo pages on the wiki for both characters. Eileen only has 3 listed combos that do over 70 damage, and two of them require your opponent to not break a stagger. She only has one move that even causes a crumple without being a counter hit anyway.

Jeffry on the other hand can do that much easily on any knee or uppercut, and if he get an MC, he can do over 90 against almost every other character in the game. Not to mention that his more powerful throws and such give him larger sources of damage outside of his combos. Plus he has a fair number of normal hit crumples, and even that ridiculous threat stance hit throw on block. His options are almost universally stronger, they're just usually a few frames slower as well.

 

I tested & transcribed the combo page for jeff, i don't need to recheck it.

I'm not estimating, I'm stating facts.

Her crumple combos do 10% less damage than jeff's (ok, 12% if you're counting kenka hook - I was mainly thinking stomach crumples), not including her setup. Yes, the stagger ones are strugglable by fast strugglers; so what - jeff's threat stance is P'able on reaction (if you cant do that, just duck), and his fP+K is punishable on block.

I'm not saying that jeff doesnt have high damage; he does. I'm saying that for eileen to be within 10% of his damage is silly.

 

Eileen does have some nice combos but her true power isn't just from her combos but from the cancelation strings. It makes it very hard to use yomi against her if your opponent knows what they're doing. Manjimaru also pointed out that a lot of her stuff looks horrible on paper but in practice it works out. Something about her cancels make people enter brainfreze mode.

Also a lot of people still don't know her moves very well appose to other chars so this plays into her difficulty to play against.

Her combos are dmging yes but her launcher isn't all that safe, 9P+K leaves her at -15 and her 66P crumple leaves her at -7 (alright not so bad on that one).

I'm not saying she's not a hard char to fight against but I think a lot of it is people haven't put the time into learning what she can do or don't know many good eileen players.