Vanessa's Makeover.

Myke regardless of what AM2 gave us, what makes VF5 Vanessa wrong. The fact that people see it as "wrong "is the issue at hand for me or even some people seeing VF5 Vanessa as "right" likewise. Anyways good job on TKing the mood of the thread with Tobal 2. Im having nostalgic bounce combo aneurysms . /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

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PhoenixDth said:

Obviously people have problems with VF5 vanessa clashing with their own idealized caricartures of what an African Woman Fighter should look like.

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I'm not seeing this. I'm seeing discontent with how she looks in VF5 - I haven't seen "should." I have seen enough pictures to satisfy me that someone "could" look like VF4 Vanessa in real life.


Also...

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PhoenixDth said:

The fact that you guys have an idealized caricarture of ethnicities at all and for it to bother you enough to create a topic speaks bounds about how racism is still affecting this world. If people did not have a predefined view of WHAT someone should look like, a topic like this should not exist at all.

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I think the predefined view is necessary for creation of fictional yet believeable characters. If someone said "draw me a karate guy" I might come up with someone that looks like Akira - you may find that racist of me and that's OK - you're allowed to think that. I guess I'm a victim of what I see in movies and TV in this case.

EDIT: now that I think about it, I might draw KEN!

 

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I'm not seeing this. . . . . . . . . . . .
I guess I'm a victim of what I see in movies and TV in this case.


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the media is far from being the correct answer

 

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PhoenixDth said:

Myke regardless of what AM2 gave us, what makes VF5 Vanessa wrong. The fact that people see it as "wrong "is the issue at hand for me or even some people seeing VF5 Vanessa as "right" likewise. Anyways good job on TKing the mood of the thread with Tobal 2. Im having nostalgic bounce combo aneurysms . /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

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This topic isnt about "if Vanessa’s black or not" nor is it about is SEGA racist. It's about Vanessa body and SKIN COLOR CHANGE. Regardless of what race Vanessa is, people's skin dont get lighter (unless your michel Jackson)

And you think women cant be as defined as Vanessa In VF4? are you crazy? Have you ever seen china from WWF? Women dont normally produce as much testosterone as men BUT when they work out heavily it can increase a lot.

Look at women’s body building. you think they use steroids? Steroids are illegal in America. So there may be a few athletes that use them, but not many.

 

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PhoenixDth said:

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I'm not seeing this. . . . . . . . . . . .
I guess I'm a victim of what I see in movies and TV in this case.


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the media is far from being the correct answer

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I don't understand your combination of my statements. Each half was in response to different things. Please don't combine them as you're not quoting me as much as putting words in my mouth. I don't like that..

I don't see the media's answer as correct or incorrect. It's just the media's answer. If I agree with it - so be it. If you don't - so be it.

 

I believe this topic is multilayered. It’s your choice to focus on the issue of ethnicity. Note that parallel to our discussion of Vanessa’s ethnicity and origins were her altered physique and the image this change conveyed or was supposed to convey to the fans and how they felt about it. Depending on yours or anyone else’s preferences within this topic, a multitude of issues could have been raised and addressed within context.

I commented on both, others on either one that mattered to them. But the potential was always there.

I don’t understand what you mean by the “right†to comment about others. Everyone has an opinion, even if that response is indifference. It’s Human nature; the ability to collect and record stimuli, mull it over then make a decision on it. Everyone does so every moment of their life .

Take Virtua Fighter as an infinitely small example; everyone has their favourite character. Whether their preference is derived from the character’s appearance, mannerisms, fighting style or all of the above, consciously or unconsciously we all lean toward at least one of them for one reason or another.

Now, when that preferred character is altered from the person’s perceived image of that character it can stir a wide range of emotions and opinions in them. Do they not have the “right†to express how they feel about that change?

Who decides who’s allowed to speak and who isn’t?

“Ethnicity†is a loaded subject sure, but that doesn’t mean it should not be discussed. How else are people supposed to address the issues in society that are brought into being by ones appearance and origins if we don’t talk about them openly and rationally? Because like it or not, they do exist. Wars were started throughout history and around the world they rage on because people did not and still don’t wish to talk about it.

Everyone has a concept of taste, especially when applied to characters, in this instance its how we obtain pleasure; by pitting our skills against other players via our chosen avatars. The name of the game says it all; Sega offers us a virtual arena that, through the range of characters they’ve provided for us, we the players can entertain ourselves with mock combat.

Just as some people throw up their hands in uproar when they’re favourite comic book hero changes their costume that they’ve been wearing for the past decade, so do some people invest a part of their soul into these avatars and when that factor is changed or even deleted it’s felt by those who care.

Some people have opinions on real people or groups of people based on their social, political, ethical or religious standing. Because they're fat or thin or rich or poor and, in some instances, where they’re from. That can’t be helped, Humans are a diverse species, and it’s that same diversity that makes us interesting. Yet people naturally look for similarities in others and form bonds with other people because of perceived connections. It’s this very same connection that has allowed Humans to come together, form cooperative units that are the seeds of society and develop rituals and traditions that are their lifeblood; culture.

It would be so much easier if everyone existed within the same society and subscribed to the same culture; everyone would know their place and no one would feel left out, there’d be no reason to clash over minute issues and self-serving desires that are sparks of aggression. Yet, we’re a complex species, everyone has an angle on the way things should be or how they want them to be. Sometimes your opinion isn’t shared by enough of a group or sometimes not at all.

That’s why it is so important for there to be a range of different characters and styles for people to choose from, so no one feels left out in the cold. Vanessa Lewis was for some their ideal avatar in Virtua Fighter, and for some she still is, but some people may not be happy with her change because the factor they associated with her is gone or altered beyond recognition or preference.

It just happened to be that one of the factors that were altered in this instance was her skin tone. And as I mentioned before; there are people out there in the world who feel like they’re no longer represented or that they’re interest in the character has diminished. We’re visual creatures; we notice the subtleties behind the issues and objects that matter to us because we have an investment in them.

Now, when that altered factor is one that isn’t common in the greater range of other characters, its loss or change only becomes more apparent. Vanessa Lewis is a minority within Virtua Fighter and I’d dare say the fighting game genre, so when people who are also a minority in their respective societies relate to her design and it is changed, those same people are going to have an opinion on the matter that is equivalent to how much of themselves they invested in that avatar because of their tastes.

But anyone can comment on the matter, because whether you can relate or not, we all have an opinion.

Let me take this deeper.

Vanessa Lewis is a character with dark skin in obvious comparison to everyone but Jeffry McWild within the Virtua Fighter series. We can debate the nature of her fictional birth all we like but she is perceived by a vast majority and I dare say if you were to take a picture of her image from Virtua Fighter 4 and show it to 50 random people anywhere in the world, they’d probably bracket her as “Blackâ€Â. Now, those people who have been classed as or have chosen to associate themselves with others under the belief that they too are “Black†may have formed an attachment to Vanessa Lewis on that perceived trait alone. Or, it can be for a multitude of reasons or, they might not relate and apply their preference to the character at all. People are people and are thus possible of many decisions by their very nature.

But, for arguments sake, let’s assume that some Black people associated with Vanessa Lewis because they believed she looked like them somewhat, that they had been represented by Sega in a way that appealed to their individual tastes. Now try to imagine if one of the factors that were changed by Sega was the very thing you identified within yourself.

Now conceive that the very same factor that appealed to you and allowed you to identify with the character is one that, for centuries, other cultures and societies made up of other people, perceived as wrong or worse, inferior, and the stigma one might receive for it. Would it be such a stretch of the imagination for someone to believe that this change was then, in someway a comment on them too, as a person, since they identified with the character on the very factor that was consciously altered?

If you do feel like that then the first question you’d probably ask is: Why?

I could give you my opinion why? In fact I believe I already have in quite some detail. Yet, before I had created this topic, this issue had not been raised. Me, being the inquisitive person I believe I am, noticing the change in Vanessa Lewis’ appearance then decided to ask what other players of Virtua Fighter or indeed anyone who would take the time to read the subject matter of my topic; what they thought of the change and how did they feel about it.

It seems like a perfectly logical question to have risen yet, I’ve come to that conclusion as an individual. Some people may not agree and wish to share that opinion, and for the most part…

I respect that.

People form attachments through their lives. It’s impossible to exist and do so without forming connections; it’s intrinsic to being Human. Some people may have formed a connection with Vanessa Lewis because her physique appealed to them, though I believe that factor doesn’t have as much sway for the greater population of this planet as what part of the world you originate from and the shade of your skin, it matters a lot to some people. That’s cool with me.

I invited them to share their thoughts too. “Beauty†is the quintessential component of taste. The vast majority of people born in most societies are the products of parents who found their partners “beautifulâ€Â. It shapes many of our day to day decisions and actions and arguably our dreams and deepest desires.

In many societies female beauty is categorised by the majority to include many factors, but one of them is the absence of muscles as that’s perceived by the majority of many societies to be the sole domain of males. So, when those people who don’t believe a women’s beauty is diminished by her physical conditioning get a character that suits their ideal, they’ll naturally form an attachment.

And when that uncommon thread is cut? You have another displaced group who may wish to share how they feel. After all, if they had to think to form that bond surely they have a thought or two after it’s been severed, no?

I could go on and on. People desire to be with other people, we find common ground with others to ease that ache we feel when alone and we tragically belittle or even take violent action against those who we don’t appreciate due to our tastes. It’s sad that that’s the state of the Human condition.

But fortunately, we can talk about it.

 

I'll chime in with some short remarks.

Vanessa's makeover was also not well received here, either by myself or among the group of people that play FT with me.

We considered design very unique - it's not easy, by any stretch of the imagination, to create a physically powerful female character in a fighting game and not have it look lame. Her moves are appropriately brutal, and should require no small amount of force.

Regardless of my personal opinion, however, I can say that she looks nothing like the average Brazilian woman of black heritage. Her facial features are much more caucasian - slim nose, slender hands, etc. The name "Vanessa" is rather uncommon here, and "Lewis" nonexistant, unless you'd consider it a form of "Luís", which is a traditional Portuguese name, and very common in Brazil.

That notwithstanding, I think she looked very believable and lively in VF4. It is my opinion that in VF5 she has "cute" features, and by that I mean rounder, bigger eyes, and a very strange head/body proportion that's common in cartoons.

To me, this is a blatant step backwards, and while I'll not lose any sleep over it, I can't say I'm not bothered at all.

 

Reading this thread is like listening to a bunch of retarded kids discussing the Atomic Theory. Don't forget to give yourself a pad in the back for typing so many fancy words without choking.

 

Christie is not black, she's Brazilian. They have a wide range of features.

Vanessa has Ethiopian features, so it's still true to form (as far as she being black). As far as her looks, I consider the aim to be more deceptive than anything. Afterall how many people who are not familiar with the game would guess that she's a powerhouse?

 

Cheers for commenting GreatDeceiver. You've provided a great insight into Brazilian culture too, a perspective some of us could only speculate on. Yeah, the name issue really falls flat on its face when you consider the cultural norm of the perceived or known country of origin. Even though Vanessa’s last name is adopted, if you take “Brad Burns†for instance; I don’t think Sega puts a lot of thought into character’s names beyond them sounding cool to their ears.

 

- "Vanessa Lewis" is an adopted name

- She could be and is most likely of mixed heritage (39% of Brazil's population is multiracial), which would explain both the "Caucasian" features and her dark skin

 

Saiten - obviously you dont know about WWE and their steroids policy.

The question I arise is that, Is a lighter skinned "black" person any less African than a darker skinned "black" person. Sure muscularture and facial features are valid topics, but once you suggest skin tone - that automaticlly carries a racist burden. You cant deny that. Why cant people percieve Vanessa just as "is" without having to imply she is a product of the racist japanese or the white mans media. Even those previous two statements are racist in itself, if that doesnt signify how this thread has been going. I've actually tried to avoid this topic from the initial pages, but you know as well as I do that the subject matter was shifting to a racial issue. When confronted with that I cant avoid it and I rather expose the problem than ignorantly go on with my life as many others would opt to do.

 

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The question I arise is that, Is a lighter skinned "black" person any less African than a darker skinned "black" person. Sure muscularture and facial features are valid topics, but once you suggest skin tone - that automaticlly carries a racist burden. You cant deny that. Why cant people percieve Vanessa just as "is" without having to imply she is a product of the racist japanese or the white mans media. Even those previous two statements are racist in itself, if that doesnt signify how this thread has been going. I've actually tried to avoid this topic from the initial pages, but you know as well as I do that the subject matter was shifting to a racial issue. When confronted with that I cant avoid it and I rather expose the problem than ignorantly go on with my life as many others would opt to do.

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No, a light skinned Black Person is not any less African than a dark skinned Black Person. A Black person from Brazil is not any less "Black" than is a Black person from the U.S. or South Africa, or Senegal etc. When you look at a picture of Vanessa Lewis, it is plain to see that she is a Black woman who bleaches her hair. It doesn't matter where she grew up. (Although the name "Lewis" implies she was raised by an American or Briton).

The fact of the matter is that there are people of different races in the world and those races have differences that are real. But if you can't talk about race, you can't ever overcome race as an obstacle between people. Discussion of skin tone does carry the burden of being about race, but it doesn't necessarily mean racist. As far as I can tell, no one here was launching racial insults or being offensive, or at least no one was offended but you. However, the racist tanget is a bit misleading, because among black people skin-tone is not one of those real differences. I know sets of twins where one of them is as light skinned as Tim Duncan and the other is as dark as Shaquille O'Neal. BTW, there are Black people who are black like a crayon.

We can't perceive that Vanessa just "is" because the simple fact is than she is a product of Japanese manufacture and Sega changed her to suit their own reasons. That begs speculation on why they changed her in the way that they did.

Someone mentioned that they thought the new VF5 model was more realistic looking than the old VF4 model. That depends on your point of view. A woman who looked like the old VF4 model would have a much better chance in a fight. The other characters, Aoi, Pai, and Sarah would all get crushed in a fight against trained men of world class ability. Only the buff and cut VF4 Vanessa looks to have slight chance in a fight on this stage, and even that would be a small one.

 

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PhoenixDth said:

The question I arise is that, Is a lighter skinned "black" person any less African than a darker skinned "black" person.

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The answer is no; the colour of ones skin doesn’t affect ones ability to subscribe to a particular culture unless said culture is founded on beliefs that are counterproductive to the subscribers’ traits. Btw; Africa is a continent made up of many nations and within them many, many cultures or tribes to be exact. So it’s very hard to sum up what being “African†is, literally.

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PhoenixDth said:

Sure muscularture and facial features are valid topics, but once you suggest skin tone - that automaticlly carries a racist burden. You cant deny that.

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I think you need to reassess your understanding of the terms “Racist†and “Racismâ€Â. To discuss and voice one’s preference regarding a character or a desired third persons' skin tone is not automatically anything. It’s merely ones taste; we all have an ideal that we subscribe to that can be made up of many related or unrelated factors. And what we don’t prefer or at least appreciate we’re indifferent to. “Prejudice†comes into the mix when one then applies negative opinions to the qualities they don’t appreciate or comprehend and that kind of prejudice is defined as “Racism†when it’s applied against a person or a people’s ethnic qualities and origins.

There’s nothing wrong with identifying with someone because of the way they look. You could argue that it’s shallow but it’s one of the things that make us Human. It becomes a detrimental issue however when those one doesn’t identify with are victimised for their differences.

This topic has the potential to dissolve into a prejudiced rant but only via the issues that posters take with them into the discussion. The question raised by this topic regarding Vanessa Lewis’ change in skin tone in and of itself is not “Racistâ€Â.

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PhoenixDth said:

Why cant people percieve Vanessa just as "is" without having to imply she is a product of the racist japanese or the white mans media. Even those previous two statements are racist in itself, if that doesnt signify how this thread has been going.

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To be is to be defined.

These characters were designed to be appreciated by a wide range of people for many different aspects that each one portrays in a distinct fashion. Whether it’s size, shape or style when we see something, anything or anyone, we apply our experiences and interests to it or them and form an opinion whether we like it, him/her or not.

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PhoenixDth said:

I've actually tried to avoid this topic from the initial pages, but you know as well as I do that the subject matter was shifting to a racial issue. When confronted with that I cant avoid it and I rather expose the problem than ignorantly go on with my life as many others would opt to do.

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Then if there is anything you take away from this discussion I hope its tact. People won’t give you the time of day if you are unable to construct your opinions into reasonable, rational and logical arguments. Aggression is only met with more in return or outright dismissal and though you may get someone to cooperate with your point of view through it, it would only be through the threat of force that people agree with you. Once you’re out of the picture they’ll revert back to the beliefs they’ve always held.

This serves no one and only creates greater rifts between two camps of thought.

 

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PhoenixDth said:

Saiten - obviously you dont know about WWE and their steroids policy.

The question I arise is that, Is a lighter skinned "black" person any less African than a darker skinned "black" person. Sure muscularture and facial features are valid topics, but once you suggest skin tone - that automaticlly carries a racist burden. You cant deny that. Why cant people percieve Vanessa just as "is" without having to imply she is a product of the racist japanese or the white mans media. Even those previous two statements are racist in itself, if that doesnt signify how this thread has been going. I've actually tried to avoid this topic from the initial pages, but you know as well as I do that the subject matter was shifting to a racial issue. When confronted with that I cant avoid it and I rather expose the problem than ignorantly go on with my life as many others would opt to do.

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I know a little bit about it. Scott Stianer (spelling?) got banned from WWE for using them.

Not if they're less African; if they're less attractive.

It's not racist to say a video game character skin color has changed when it has. The discussion of race itself isnt racist.

I do admit that one or two people came in here and said such and such is racist, but most of us arent necessarily talking about that issue. We're discussing how odd it is for SEGA to make such a dramatic change in one of their characters appearances.

Personally I view Vanessa as black. Weather she is or not doesn’t matter because that's not the topic of this thread. That being said, it does matter that she was basically made to look white. Vanessa's one of two dark skinned characters in the game.

let me ask you this, what would you do if SEGA changed 50%of all the characters to have darker skin? Would you be happy with that?

 

... this is retarded, i know you all had fantasies of VF4 vanessa kicking your ass and then making you eat your shoes... but just fucking chill out,

and saiten... color does change, don´t be retarded, send any hispanic to a cold country and they get whiter

 

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Setsuna_Goh said:

... this is retarded, i know you all had fantasies of VF4 vanessa kicking your ass and then making you eat your shoes... but just fucking chill out,

and saiten... color does change, don´t be retarded, send any hispanic to a cold country and they get whiter

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No they dont. what your calling "changing color" is them loosing their tan.

If humans can "change color" then why Havent I? I've never gotten lighter before.

 

Any of you notice how Aoi has much lighter skintone now in VF5??? Akira has always looked more European then Japanese.... I think Sega is trying to alienate themselves from the Japanese and are racist biggots that hate Japanese.

Edit: LOOK AT GOH!!!1one

/KiwE

 

KiwE, your sarcasm is palpable. /versus/images/graemlins/smirk.gif