Vanessa is 'too cheap'?

Uhm, no. -6 for lei fei doesnt mean what it means for other chars. He's generally elbow punishable here (switch to hai can avoid some peoples elbows depending on feet). see http://virtuafighter.com/wiki/doku.php?id=vf5:lei-fei:black_book_strategy#vs_stances

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PP is MID and PPP is a MID DOUBLE PALM. To top this off his punch is one frame faster than DS vane's (just saying that because somebody actually dared complain about Vane's DS punch strings, WTF, srsly)
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Yes, srsly. Lei's PPP is (linear) MID and then another (linear) MID which is WORSE than having multiple level options at every step of the string, like DS vane. Not to mention she has better throws from string, that dont require stance cancelling, and low throws. P speed mainly matters for abare; if youre complaining about an 11f punch when your character has access to a 9fr punch . . . .

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Here's a clue: Read and play more before forming an opinion LURK MOAR.
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Yes, please do.

Not enough to make K+G uber lleet, which was never the point anyway, but enough to make it occasionally viable IMHO

edit: oh, and as for countering defensive elbow with an elbow of your own . . . punishing blocked lowp w/ welbow is hard online. Beating repeated 3p w/ your own elbow should be hard as hell unless you guard the first one.

 

I just don't agree with you kOd. I'm sorry but I just don't...

 

What makes you think I haven't?

And the point is that from a gameplay standpoint how difficult a combo is doesn't matter, only what payoff it gives. Demanding execution combos doesn't add depth.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Yes, srsly. Lei's PPP is (linear) MID and then another (linear) MID which is WORSE than having multiple level options at every step of the string, like DS vane. Not to mention she has better throws from string, that dont require stance cancelling, and low throws. P speed mainly matters for abare; if youre complaining about an 11f punch when your character has access to a 9fr punch . . . .</div></div> All right, time to stop the silliness here. I admit it's entertaining to read people complaining about Vanessa's cheapness yet they only complain about funny and stupid stuff and seems clueless about her real cheap stuff /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Case in point here: Vanessa's DS /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif

The story: It's the worst jab in the game. The end.

Why: First off. It's tied for the slowest jab. She's doesn't have a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif or anything to resemble it. This automatically makes it worse then any other characters jab because she can't really use it to get solid punishment, even Lei can get two hits and an advantage to follow.

The "varying levels" argument introduced by the genius vf3beatsvf4 especially makes me laugh. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is good, I'll give you that. It's easy to deal with all other options in her string if you've played against her long enough, and the only two options that might break through a good defense puts her at a disadvantage.

 

That makes NO sense! How does making them difficult not add depth??? That means you have to be good to use the really good combos. Most games are like that and most characters in VF are too. There are a few lazy ass, easy combos that do too much damage in the game though. It hurts the balance to have Akira have extremely technical combos that do a lot of damage and give that same damage to another character but make it EASY TO DO. Of course making it hard adds depth. It takes more practice to get good that way, thus more time needed to master it, thus more depth... I don't follow your logic at all.

 

No. Combos only require mechanical skills. Anyone can get good at combos. You don't even need to play VS to become good at it.

The reason combos doesn't add depth is that as soon as you hit your launcher, your opponents actions are taken out of the equation. He can't do anything in this situation.

If a combo does let's say 70 damage, that is what matters, not how difficult it was to get it.

It's landing the initial launcher that is part where the real depth lies.

 

Jeneric
If a combo does let's say 70 damage, that is what matters, not how difficult it was to get it.

No, it used to be that only the GOOD players could get a combo like that, not just any dope with minimal experience, who glanced at the top of a move list. (NOT saying that's you) Rewarding your diligence is a big part of what made VF what it is today.

 

By all means, enlighten us about her real cheap stuff. I've only played VF5 vane about 30 minutes.

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It's tied for the slowest jab.
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boohoo 9fr P, cry me a river

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She's doesn't have a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif or anything to resemble it. This automatically makes it worse then any other characters jab because she can't really use it to get solid punishment, even Lei can get two hits and an advantage to follow.
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AFAIK, the original complaint is regarding rushdown ability, not punishment. Yeah, DS vanessa punishment isnt all that great. That doesn't have much to do with how good her P _strings_ are

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's easy to deal with all other options in her string if you've played against her long enough, and the only two options that might break through a good defense puts her at a disadvantage.
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The "easy enough once youve played her long enough" applies to pretty much everyone (except possibly eileen). Ditto for the disadvantage, except vanessa's ARM speed ( can she just walk backwards away from everything after PPK hits? ) & sabaki make that even less of a problem for her compared to eg Lau. Edit - speaking of lau, here's an interesting experiment: "If lau does PP strings, do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif. Complete this sentence: If vanessa does PP string, do . . ." Fact remains DS vanessa has more mixup options off of P that 3/4 of the cast, which is pretty useful vs characters with a strong reversal / sabaki game that can nearly shut down option-weak P strings.

 

True. While the difficulty of a combo has no bearing on how strong a character is, it does have a bearing on how cheap the character is perceived to be.

I like combos, Im a combo person. I like having more combos. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

Thanks Jeneric, that's exactly what i'm trying to point out.

KoD, even though i could spare the irony, i invite you to look at the thread i linked to before called Vanessa TOP TEN moves. There you can find detail discussion of her staple moves, with detailed comments.

Her best (cheap if you like to whine) moves boil down to:

ARM


+
WS

Everything else, including , and is just decent. The top ten is concluded with the addition of and , just as any other character's top ten moves list considering you can't possibly play VF without those two universal moves.

 

Difficulty does not equal depth. Practice time a player requires does not equal depth either.

 

lol arm

 

If a game had zero depth what would you practice? You practice things to get good a the subtleties of them AKA the depth...

 

I might, depends on how hard the moves were to me. Execution has very little if anything to do with depth. Depth has a lot more to do with strategy and options than anything else.

 

Your list of moves doesn't really add anything to what i've been saying (only thing new is /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, and I'd rather have jeff's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif personally).
Don't use any kid gloves - I don't care how long i've PLAYED her (I dont have all that much interest in playing her), if you think my ASSESMENT of her is inaccurate, by all means point out why. Otherwise I'm going to call it like it is, and like it is == you're full of shit if you claim /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif are anything other than uniquely awesome moves.

 

Oh man... gernsburg, your crusade against combo difficulty is among the stupidest things I've ever read.

This entire game is balanced around the assumption of 100% execution. If your arguments were correct, anyone who could do the 1-frame knee should automatically win every match cause obviously harder moves show skill, right?

You're looking at the entire argument the wrong way... the game provides us with different characters depending on how you want to play. A lot of people think Akira is really cool, and are willing to to put in the time to learn all his "difficult" attacks. But I've also seen a number of people just pick him up and start playing no problem, cause they started with more than enough hand-eye coordination to do anything they wanted with him. And, the most people take one look at his move list and run... but that's fine, we've been provided with other characters specifically to ensure that noone's forced to perform moves they personally find difficult.

You sound like your opponent's execution ability is somehow a problem for you... whether you face a good akira, or a good lei-fei, you're gonna take the same 70 damage every time you get launched, the important part is exactly what some other people said... learning to block the launcher in the first place. Don't confuse your own incompetence with some made-up story about how far your opponent's fingers have to move.

 

Actually, for me this is a big philosophical question. (or as big as it can be about a video game) I think both sides have valid points.
"This entire game is balanced around the assumption of 100% execution."
Are you sure? Who told you? If so, why do they make some combos for some characters 20x harder than others? I think the fact that missing a guard cancel gives you the worst move possible for a given situation is no accident.

If your arguments were correct, anyone who could do the 1-frame knee should automatically win every match cause obviously harder moves show skill, right?
Good point on its own, but coming from VF1 and VF2 I found that, generally, the combination of moves that took real skill and timing to do took off the most energy, i.e splash mountain, countless Akira stuff (I never liked him), or even just the fact that Wolf's 360 throw is harder to do than simply PG. There used to be a direct correlation between difficulty to perform moves and their damage infliction. That's changing.

Don't you think Sega did this on purpose to broaden the user base? They took the only thing that was keeping the general gamer away and tried to soften it up a little, why trying to make it such that experts will always prevail over noobs. I think the problem is that when you're between expert and noob, you find that there isn't enough advantage anymore to being better or well-practiced, esp. compared to the old VFs, which made newcomers feel like retards. Unfortunately, without expanding the user base, we wouldn't have any more VFs... They're walking a thin line when they make these decisions.

In short, Vanessa is a cheesy hooker and I hate her.

Thank you.

 

They do it, cause its cool. But the characters are balanced on the assumption of 100% execution. If they wouldnt be, we would get crossly overpowered characters. It is stupid to make something overpowered and try to balance it in the way that it is more difficult to do. There will always be people who practise like nothing and get it down to routine no matter how hard it is.

Like I said before, difficulty of doing a move/combo has no bearing on how strong the character is, the move and combo properies are the same regardless of difficulty. But the character may be considered 'cheap' if it gets too much with too little.

Its pretty much obvious that Sega has been making things more beginnerfriendly, adding more eyecandy etc... But the balance is still there. It hasnt changed..much.

 

I'm not sure you can make this argument unless you're a designer for AM2.

Related question - if this is true, why is knee better than yoho?

 

Hi, seven5suited, i remember you play Pai.

You know, the 10 frame jab Pai, with the 14 frame double hopkick Pai, 14 frame floater , two 14 frames elbows in the form of and , a 15 frames rising kick knocks down on hit but oh, nobody does that anyway because she ALSO has a 16 frames double fist rising punch that rapes even more, tons of moves with with 6 active frames, wait, it's not done, an unblockable, throws that do more damage than vanessa's damaging throws from every break direction, hell more damage than 3/4 of the cast, sabakis and reversals second only to Aoi, low throws, moves that sober for -2 (why not, it's Pai afterall) and bokutai. Oh and sweeps that knock down on any hit, those are handy for oki, vane has none of those either. Hell, she even has 3 charge atacks, one of which is cancellable. WTF, oh, it's Pai, ok then.

And **you** are complaining about vanessa being cheap?!

I'm asking because we played online and you just rushed me down spaming those very moves knowing they are faster than any other character's and safe on block - like every other Pai player online.

I'm wondering, is the guard button disabled for Pai players? That was uncalled for, i apologize.

EDIT: KoD, man, it's been explained that is 18 frames move that does only 18 damage and has no guaranteed followup, is a 21 frame move that does 21 damage and no guaranteed followup. + is better because it's 17 frames and does an 70 damage float, on everybody, regardless of feet position or weight class. The two moves you are fixating with are good, just not her best. Boomerang Hook ftw.

EDIT: post edited after KoD's insightful comments.