Vanessa is 'too cheap'?

However you describe 'cheap' it won't change the fact that Vanessa isn't that.... (cheap). There are characters with more dangerous aresenal of moves, though every character has adv. and disadv., however it doesn't change the fact that IMO you can't call a character cheap.
Like some of you stated a tactic can be cheap (spamming a move, or using 2P often if the opponent doesn't react) or a move that gives a huge adv. but doesn't even allow nitaku on block. But the whole character? Come on.

@Sebo
Congratulations on finally stating something in favor of OS /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif
Maybe I'll be able to convert you to my Dark OS side /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif
Seriously though, anyone playing Vanessa should at least try using both stances. Have your favourite, but use both /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif I do that, and believe me.... this way she's the Devil (double D-evil) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

 

you could always mash 4P+G to get out of kage's tft if it's proving to be an effective method against you.

 

Nicely posted. Also, I don't believe in being 'delusional' when I say nothing is cheap. [unless the game has a broken balance mechanic which VF5 is probably NOT in that category]

Cheap is what most noobs yelp when they have to deal with something they refuse to learn a defense against. such as 1P. For some reason, they keep doing 2P thinking it'd interrupt it... :\

In just my opinion, 'cheap' and 'spam' will just be terms used by noobs who refuse to grow as gamers. So, in defense of my beliefs, I use the terms 'effective' and 'strategic repetition' as my gamer terms. That and it sounds more ya know, smarter... *shrug*

 

Pfft, I don't play the bitch anymore.

edit: I've said positive things about OS before! Ya-huh. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, Intruder, and the awesome /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif!!!![/size]

*read as if time is passing*

C:
C: |
C: c
C: cd
C: cd
C: cd s
C: cd si
C: cd sig
C: cd sig_
C: cd sig_g
C: cd sig_ge
C: cd sig_get
C: cd sig_get.
C: cd sig_get.e
C: cd sig_get.ex
C: cd sig_get.exe

/dos ftw

Yeah, they also have emo hair.

 

Have you played online vs K+G ? It's noticeably harder to duck on reaction.

And, yeah, DS punch strings aren't that good, for some value of "aren't that good" == "better than 80% of the cast";

Yeah, you need to mix up moves, that's true of anyone. This is a hell of a lot different from being "intricate". Calling vanessa's moves "intricate" (ie "hard to understand, work, or make") in a game with akira's SPoD & Knee, and jacky's iaigeri combos, is just ridiculous. Boohooo, so she cant get an elbow in DS without crouchdashing. It's not like her combos are harder than e.g. leifeis' stuff that requires refloats, cancelling to bt nehan, or killing frames. Hell, you can frustrate a lot of people on line just by standing there & grabbing their punches - how "intricate" is it to leave the joystick neutral? Citing the length of her movelist is equally silly - like i said, it's less than twice as long (292) as the simplest character (eileen @ 159 moves).

This is exactly the point. If vanessa players were honest, they wouldn't be saying "vanessa's not cheap", they would be saying "vanessa's got a lot of cheap shit, here's how to beat it". She has shit that almost no one else has, that beats common options (effective), that's totally safe (less cost).

wanna beat evade, without any guaranteed punishment at all?

select char, command from vf5_b where lvl = 'M' and Esc = '- . -' and grd > -10 and command not like '%max charge%' and category != 'Rising Attacks' and category != 'Wall Attacks';

leifei|/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif
leifei|(defensive move) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
leifei|(back turned) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
vanessa|/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
vanessa|(hold /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/ub.gif (toward Vanessa's front) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
vanessa|(hold /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/ub.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif (toward Vanessa's back) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
aoi|/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
aoi|(back turned) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif

wanna beat almost any low attack in the game, including arguably the best move in the game (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif)?

select char, command, grd from vf5_b where notes like '%sabaki%LP%LK%SW%' ;

leifei|(Ko Ko Shiki) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif
vanessa|/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif
vanessa|(back turned) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif

Notice that lei's koko K is basically punishable by anyone with fast unsabakiables b/c he's stuck in stance, while vanessa is, you guessed it, safe.

I could continue, but you already know she's cheap (effective at low risk). This isn't hating, or n00b whining, or 'ooh vanessa invincible', it's just the truth.

 

"TAKE THAT!" + huge telegraphing animation? Lag gets that bad?

Good point.

KoD 1, Me zippo

*starts a thread on how to beat the overpowered (I agree with you on that) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif because it doesn't seem to be common knowledge even though I've posted what it beats and how well elbow works against it (not talking about you in particular, but I've been seeing the same damn question being raised every day by people who don't know the basics of "research," i.e. my post that meticulously outlines EVERY ATTACK in DS [mutha-fuck, I wrote it so it can be common knowledge, apply it!])*

 

Either this thread has some hidden intention of encouraging/discouraging people to Vanessa, or if it's just a distress call to have the public educated.
Usually the root of a problematic move and a solution to it is found in frame data.

Dunno which one of the reasons I suggested is the reason for this thread. But for people who like to emphasize the "smaller effect of tier lists in this game than other games," it's a little weird to find a thread like this to call Vanessa/some of her tools cheap. Good tools are one thing; cheap tools are near unstoppable.

 

Exactly.

The VF5 tier list is based on this. Did you guys not read what was translated from that Arcadia tier list thread?

I don't remember whether it was Myke, Ice-9 or Jide, but one of them basically said that the difference between the tiers are damage on risk/reward and the damage potential on more commonly landed moves.

A move that is commonly landed, and has a favorably skewed risk/reward ratio on a damage:safety aspect is something that's more, for less.

 

my question is why do people seem to complain the most about vane and le-fei while eileen dosen't get such flamed debate. She def gets hated on but we don't have whole threads dedicated to why she's a bitch. Is this just because most people don't know the specifics of her or is it she's only really dangerous in the hands on non-noobs?

 

She doesn't do huge chunks of damage in easy combos. I think that makes her less frustrating to play. Nothing is worse than a 10th Kyu Lei staggering you with that stupid sweep, kick you up in in the air and then double jump kick. So easy to do that the noobest noob can do it every time and it does half your life! That's just a wack combo. The stagger on block jumping punch is a bitch too, it's just frustrating to play against...

 

I also don't like labeling things as cheap, but slides definition of cheap is pretty spot on. (Effective at low cost/risk)

In this case Eileen would definitely be classified as that as well.

Her options are very safe. She's the type of character who can keep trying small attacks that open a big window of damage, stuff without being guaranteed punishment and she actually has nothing thats hard to do. Her just frame off her /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is full proof... Even if you accidentally mistime the third hit you still did a lot of damage without big risk.

I think the reason most people don't complain about her is because she lacks a few things. Eileen is my secondary character and whenever I use her I feel like I lack a good circular, and I also lack range. Her DM P+K isn't very good either. Don't get me wrong though, her options there are probably still better than a lot of characters. I use jacky as my main so I definitely feel the range difference.

Vanessa's got almost everything covered, safe mid, long reach, good throw options, sabakis. I dunno this is just my ignorant opinion, but I definitely can understand where people are coming from saying she's cheap, but like I said.. I rarely call anything cheap because I usually just suck it up and deal with it. If it's legit and you won that's all that matters.

edit: Gernberg, sorry but I have to disagree with you. Eileen's combos aren't hard at all and they're very damaging.

 

Fair enough, I just HATE Lei Fei for that combo, that's all.

 

DITTO!!!!! 2P and 1P to the rescue...

 

Since when did combo difficulty matter?

Not that any staple combos in VF really are difficult.

 

Lei Fei is a good example that some people are bitching about the wrong things.

You're complaining about the Lei's to doku ritsu shiki kick. The kick staggers you on normal hit. OK, it's a 20 frames move, no complaints there.

(btw it's not a sweep - he HAS sweeps from that stance too but noobs don't use them).

Here comes the fun part:

First of all, the kick is only -6 on block. Can't touch this.

Second, Lei Fei is on positive frames after he hits you with his . Normal and counter hit give +4. Which makes it easier for you to eat the kick but, hey, it's your fault if you didn't block the punch string, right?

Third Lei Fei is on positive frames after you BLOCK his . BAM! That's what PWNS THE NOOBS. They block his punches and then try to retaliate and eat a 2/5 lifebar combo. They KEEP DOING THE SAME MISTAKE and of course proceed to call him cheap and broken.

Yup, Lei Fei is at +1 after a blocked PP. He's at neutral frames after a blocked PPP too. PP is MID and PPP is a MID DOUBLE PALM. To top this off his punch is one frame faster than DS vane's (just saying that because somebody actually dared complain about Vane's DS punch strings, WTF, srsly)

Here's a clue: Read and play more before forming an opinion LURK MOAR.

 

Try Akira buddy. You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

 

All you did was explain in depth why he IS cheap...

 

Dude, just because the average player can't unstagger fast enough doesn'mean real players can't. A move that comes off at 20 fames and has no guaranteed combo is not cheap. It's even risky.

T w e n t y f r a m e s.

In a game with 14-frame floaters, you're playing by your own rules in your own magical land if you think otherwise.

EDIT: OH, wait, you were talking about his PUNCH STRINGS being cheap. Right. Ok, that's debatable. But it serves to enforce my point about how people bitch and moan for absolutely the wrong reasons. Doku definetly not cheap, ffs.

 

I feel like the fact that he can get into that stance and be at advantage even when you block is cheap first off. I understand you can struggle it but I'm not sure you're guaranteed to escape the combo. Plus the stagger is low and he can float you with the mid too so your best bet IMHO is to evade but that's not that easy either. It does half you life too which is just pouring salt on the cheap combo wound...

I always try to sidestep when I see that coming but it doesn't always work. Plus, you can't Low P him out of it cause he will AUTO sabaki! He should at least have to time a reversal or something! It's borderline retarded and soooooo abusable!