Vanessa - Ask a question, get an answer

DS used to beat highs during its startup frames in *previous* VF versions. Unfortunately this no longer appears to be the case in VF5FS. It also used to track to vane's stomach. Again, this is no longer the case

Generally speaking if a vanessa player wants a safe mid-mid string, they will tend to use (since the first hit tracks and the second hit can potentially lead to a damaging hit throw on counter hit) - except if the vanessa player guesses that their opponent will low punch from disadvantage. In that scenario DS will crouch stagger, meaning that will knock the opponent down for some oki.

DS was also nerfed in this version: it used to have a mid followup that kept the opponent honest. It was also more damaging. Nowadays it's mostly overshadowed by - except when the opponent has their back against the wall. Then it becomes deadly.

Concerning DS , remember: if it sabakis a low punch/kick then it counts as a NORMAL HIT. If it hits a high attack during said high attack's recovery frames, it counts as Normal Hit (plus some extra damage, but that's irrelevant to your question).

Otherwise, if somehow you land a counter hit, congratulations! Enjoy your +4f advantage, nothing's guaranteed Worse, since DS Vanessa's mid launcher is 17f (like most characters' mid launchers), it will lose to your opponent's low punch. A 16f mid move (or faster) will net you a counter hit in that scenario though, so you could try one of those. For example WS will stagger, can transition into Arm Hold if you input the hit-throw, and will combo and sideturn your opponent, and, as mentioned earlier, will knock down your opponent. If you think your opponent will block or evade, you can always go for a throw.

If you can't/don't want to bother distinguishing between normal and counter hit, you can always just low punch.

Mix it up

 

Fantastic info, thanks to both of you. I did not know that a successful sabaki is considered a normal hit, that is good to know.

Unfortunate about 66PP, it looks like it goes under highs (and i think the name implies it too lol), but thanks for the ideas on how to use them.

From what i understand, DS Vane seems like a CH type character; her launcher is slow, her other launcher (4P+K) is high and only works on CH. Are there any reliable ways to setup 3P+K? It seems the best way to use this is simply evade and punish a long recovery move.

 

If your opponent evades without dash canceling their evade (like the evade launcher happy type of player) delay your 3P+K to make your opponent do a failed evade and punish with 3P+K

 

Does DS combo on side recovery hit?

I'm asking because i recorded d+p > df+p+k > high guard with Lau in order to test which moves combo on recovery hit.

When i do backdash to avoid lau's uppercut, my DS is guarded.
When i do evade to avoid lau's uppercut, my DS is not blocked and i get a slam. But the frame display at the bottom left does not register DS as a combo.

I'm confused.

EDIT: i tried with OS and the same thing happens: everything connects on side recovery hit but it does not register as a combo. Maybe it can be ducked but not blocked?

EDIT#2: well, that's exactly what's happening apparently. when i record lau to do d+p > df+p+k > crouch guard he ducks the second hit. Damnit, and i thought i was onto something useful there

 

Didn't test but I'd figure it's the 3 frame sideturn thingy. They can't guard because of those frames but since the follow-up is high they should be able to crouch under.
EDIT: Yep, that was it.

 

This exchange took place in the shoutbox a couple of minutes ago:

"Alstein: Oh, is there any reason to use Vane's 3K+G hit-throw in either DS or OS?
erdraug: Alstein: from DS, yes. It's her only mid move with decent damage on Normal Hit until 24f.
erdraug: from OS only if you want to switch places with your opponent"

Any other uses for the hit-throws i might have forgotten?

 

I almost don t use it, the only hit throw i use is in interception 2K p+g
Edit: i ll say that it s good to use those moves to punish for exemple, fail evades or a whiffed move... It s good too to break opponent's rythm

 

While playing around in the dojo i managed to get OS CH > bound > against a couple of middle- & heavyweights.

Could anyone else test this? It appears to do a couple of points of damage more than OS CH > bound > .

 

i think i already tried it and it s the same damage. I tried vs taka coz it s the 2 only possibility for this combo
Edit: u re right, u got 1 dmg point more with 3KPK
Edit 2: if u really wantto get more dmg even on heavywigths, u ve got the ->->-> (82DMG) or after the ->->-> (84 dmg)

 

Yet another question:

Is there something wrong with OS Intruder Step ? Is IS so vastly superior that it overshadows IS completely? On paper IS doesn't look that bad - but then again why isn't anyone using it?!

 

It s a good move coz it looks like the IS so i use it to mix up. But IS is definitely better coz it s safer on guard, and avoids lows and u get a stagger for a large choice of combo (if the opponent doesn t unstagger)

 

Wait, i was under the impression IS crumpled on NH? Are the move's properties different on NH and CH?! THAT would explain it.

Otherwise marly's anwer has confused me even more.

 

Yes it crumple on NH

 

Interesting - i was always afraid that the pushback on OS would make the IS whiff so i never tried that But, i admit, i stopped using OS when they changed the IS from a cancel to a followup, so i would have never thought of trying it in the first place! Thanks for the tip, i'll try to apply it from now on Gives me a reason to use OS , that move has really good reach.

So... directly related question: can OS CH IS be interrupted by anything? Because if it can't be interrupted, that would mean that OS CH IS results in a 50/50 between the and followup!

 

On block I could interrupt it with 18f move or 19f more powerful one. On even normal hit I couldn't interrupt it with even jab or 2P.

EDIT: For bit more indepth. IS P and IS P+G can be fuzzied on normal hit and CD fuzzied on CH (didn't test if you could delay the throw slightly to prevent this...).
4K normal hit -> IS P on evade is -18. 4K CH -> IS P on evade is -14 (IS K has 1 total frame less, so the numbers would be -17 and -13).
Speaking of evading, I can't ECD the IS P / IS P+G mix even on normal hit, just fuzzy.
EDIT2: Yeah, you can delay the throw from IS.

 

I m not so sure coz the IS is a slow move so i think it s possible to stop it even in CH I ll check it tonight coz it s a interesting to know that

 

It's not like I didn't record all of that stuff and test it myself.
On normal hit you can't interrupt it with even 11f jabs. Could get DS Vanessas 3P in there. So unless you have 10f moves it's uninterruptable on normal hit and totally uninterruptable on CH.

 

I keep u in touch, if what u say is true, that 's a good news =)
I didn t see your edit on previous post... Nice job and good news =)))