Using EDG/ECDG to beat attacks and delayed attacks

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

Cos you only get +8 when you guard Akira's SDE compared to +12 to +20 on a successful evade?

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

Yomi comes from Yomimasu. And the right word is Yomu, which is verb for "To read". That is the literal meaning.

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

how about when you go from +5 from blocking a low punch to even from evading it?

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

But aren't we talking about defensive tactics when at disadvantage? IMHO, I would prefer going for a big move after guarding my opponent's knee or elbow than doing a low punch. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

danny and akai:

Some of the players here poke a lot more than they throw, so for them I see using EDG as being very effective. I do agree that ECDG can be more useful than EDG depending on your opponent.

ECDG can duck throw but the window is very, very small; I think the window is when you enter the ducking state at the 17th frame to whenever you decide to stand up. So while it may avoid throws the timing required is so tight I think it's hard to avoid delay throws on purpose -- BUT we shall see because my understanding of these techniques are still quite theoretical.

ECDG doesn't work as well in VF4 as it does in VF5 because the failed evade is much slower, and it's pretty easy to beat it with a delay attack. While I think ECDG is much better in VF5 at only 18 frames vulnerability, it's still a big window compared to 13 frames for EDG. That's more than fast -- that limits the number of potential attacks to basically just punches and low punches! And that's assuming the attacker can time the punch and low punch at the exact moment (i.e. beginning on 1-3 frames after EDG is executed).

akai, I think your observation is astute: if EDG/ECDG is done from disadvantaged state (e.g. -11) and the opponent throws right away, it won't be a 0-frame throw. However, the opponent will still succeed in throwing you if you EDG because you exit standing, and will still succeed if you ECDG because it takes 17 frames before you are considered crouching. Even if the opponent throws you at the latest timing at -11 you won't have enough time to crouch dash under it.

KOD:

As Shang correctly pointed out, if your opponent low punches like crazy it's better to just guard then EDG. However, most opponents with a brain will poke you with other attacks. E.g. Akira will DE, SDE, sidekick, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, etc. Against such types of moves it is much better to evade than to guard. Put in another way, EDG and ECDG dramatically raises the risk of a poking strategy.

Naysayers:

If you don't like these techniques, don't sweat it! It's up to you to decide whether you want to adopt them or not. I'm here posting because 1) I want to answer genuine questions, and 2) in my view I'm contributing to the community by posting about my knowledge versus keeping it a secret. I am NOT here to convince you that you should use it. Hope we're clear.

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

danny13, did you even read ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques??? He specifically said the ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques are about anti-poking. big moves aren't poking. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">why you'd use EDG over ECD </div></div>

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif?

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

The dude is from Boston, what do you expect. Oh yeah, GO Yankees!

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

I see using EDG more to deal with opponents who poke well, and/or if I am playing with a character that does not have a good long-distance game. I don't know about you, but getting a successful evade and getting guaranteed damage sounds a lot better than just having the advantage.

If my opponent is accident prone, I don't need to use some fancy special technique to defeat him/her. Straight up play should suffice methinks. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">However, an ECD does all this and more. An ECD also allows you to duck under throws, depending on the disadvantage situation. So I see no benefits or reasons why you'd want to EDG instead of ECD?

You mentioned that the additional frames required to crouch make it less effective such that a Knee could hit you. But if you see the Knee coming, you stop trying to crouch and just hit neutral /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif to instantly stand and guard (ever heard of fuzzy guarding? )

So with their vulnerabilities being essentially the same, but with ECD having an additional benefit of working against a nitaku situation (mid/throw), again I don't see why you'd use EDG over ECD.
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*Shrug* I don't know why we're arguing whether one is better than the other--it should depend on the situation and your opponent. You're trading off the benefit of potentially ducking a throw for a longer period of vulnerability. Sometimes that's worth the trade off, sometimes not.

Me personally I have my doubts just as to how many throws you could duck under with an ECDG. Remember that there are 0-frame throws now; certain situations where ECD worked in VF4 will no longer work in VF5. Think about it.

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

lol, ok i get what you mean.

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">*Shrug* I don't know why we're arguing whether one is better than the other--it should depend on the situation and your opponent. You're trading off the benefit of potentially ducking a throw for a longer period of vulnerability. Sometimes that's worth the trade off, sometimes not.
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I believe his point was that you can INSTANTLY cancel the crouch dash at ANY point, so there is in fact no longer period of vulnerability.

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

My understanding of fuzzy guard is that you actually do CD to avoid throws AND THEN stand up to block middle attacks. You don't crouch dash OR stand up to block on reaction/telepathy. The concept applies similarly to ECDG. When you execute the CD, you really do CD. Try it out. When you do ECDG -- no matter how quickly you press /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif after the CD -- you will see the CD animation if you had inputted correctly. Also, the overall ECDG animation lasts longer than the EDG animation; this should give you a clue about the longer period of vulnerability.

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

I got to try out the ECDG, one thing I notice is that blocking animation shows up rather quickly. Regardless on what people think, this a tip you should be taken under consideration. Is like people expected this concept to be the greatest tip in the world. Because I see this working against aggressive players.

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

Yeah, I realize that the tone of my original post might have something to do with it. It was probably too tongue-in-cheek but some people seemed to have missed the intent. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/tired.gif

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

ABCDEG... ECDAGGG... So difficult to undertand!!!

Got any other defensive techniques you can share? Like how to play against Kage who kept doing and alternating the new stance moves... super irritating!!!

 

Re: ice-9's New Super Defensive Techniques!!

That's correct, that's what I am saying. When you do ECDG you will definitely see the crouch dash animation, meaning that the earliest in which the character can stand up to guard is 6 frames later than EDG where you can guard right away. Of course this is just based on observation; I don't have the means to actually count the frames. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif When you try them out though, to me at least, ECDG looks clearly longer to "finish" than EDG. Maybe someone can make a clip of it?

As for VF4 -- can someone remind me again what the purpose is for ECD in defensive situations? In what examples is it useful? Just straight up ECD; not back dash ECD. I think comparing the usage of ECD in VF4 to VF5 might be helpful.