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Understanding Nitaku - on behalf of n00bs

Discussion in 'Dojo' started by Franz, Dec 25, 2007.

  1. Franz

    Franz Well-Known Member

    Also (and this is some info that would be nice to have in the system guide under 0f throws, I just checked the linked post too and nobody mentions it), how many frames do I have to execute a TE if I get thrown with a 0f throw? Is it a standard thing or does it depend on the throw?
     
  2. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member Bronze Supporter

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    Well, I am quite sure all moves you do have for the most part at least 10 frames for you to buffer your moves. Don't look at the frame data under "Guard Column." Instead, look at the frame data from "Total Column" subtracted by frame data from the "Execution Column."

    Whether or not it is 0-frame throw or 12-frame throw, you still have 21 frames (10 frames before throw connects, and 11 frames after throw connects...if I remember correctly) to input throw escapes.
     
  3. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

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    I think you might be confusing the usage of "recovery" in this context. The recovery period that I keep referring to is after the move's active frames. Even a standard /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif has something like 13 frames of recovery built-in, and I'm not aware of any attack that has less than 10 frames recovery.

    What you might be referring to is the frame difference on guard being shorter than 10 frames? Well, regardless of this fact, you still have more than 10 frames of recovery in which the input buffer will reside.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And if the recovery is longer, you still only have the 10 frame window near the end of recovery to buffer the escapes. </div></div>
    Nod.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hmm, if the throw isnt 0-frame, isnt there time during the grab animation to still register throwescapes? (not guard) That would make sense to me but I dont know for sure. </div></div>
    There is a window either side of the grab (active portion) where throw escapes can register. When I asked Itazan about this in LA, he mentioned something like 8 frames before, and 12 frames after. He wasn't entirely sure of these figures though.
     
  4. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

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    akai, was this published anywhere?
     
  5. Manjimaru

    Manjimaru Grumpy old man

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    Ah right. My mistake. This isnt something I have paid particular attention before, as I tend to learn things by doing.
     
  6. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member Bronze Supporter

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    Myke - yeah, it was in the Black Book, and I think someone posted the info in one of the Dojo's topics...can't remember which one at the moment. I can double check tonight with the black book when I get back home.
     
  7. Pai_Garu

    Pai_Garu Well-Known Member

    Here is the reason why I say TEG doesn't exist in VF5 (it was said within the context of TEG not possible to avoid nitaku, but anyways): assuming now that my claim that TEG is not possible when throw is not guaranteed (<12f), then TEG can only be done when your recovery frames is 12 frames or higher. In VF5, -12 is /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif counterable for all characters, so Guarding in this case is not possible (unless of course the opponent decides to not take guaranteed dmg, but making this kind of assumption discounts everything in VF). So there is no TEG in VF5.

    Now let's say that TEG is indeed possible at -2~-11, what I don't understand is

    1) If the input buffer for TE's is always 10 frames at the end of recovery as you said Myke, then
    2) It means EVERY move in game has a potential 10 frame TE window that can be used in the same application as TEG in Evo/FT sense, but then
    3) If you can input multiple TE's for -8 in Evo/FT in this same 10 frame buffer, then
    4) Wouldn't that mean you should be able to input multiple TE's for ALL moves since they ALL have the same 10 frame input buffer?

    This is obviously not the case as you said yourself that it's almost impossible to do more than just 1 TE at -5.

    I tried it more in Dojo, and the reason I said I can't get it consistently enough is because unlike ETEG which I can do 100%, TEG at -8 doesn't give me nearly the same level of success. I can't tell if I'm successfully executing this defense cause i'm timing it correctly, or I'm adjusting the timing of my /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif input unconsciously. I think it's a good test to simply set CPU to guard, and then try to execute TEG and see if you end up throwing the opponent.

    I don't want to discount you/KoD/manji's test results, but it just seems interesting to me that if TEG was indeed a viable option as defense for mid to large disadvantages, but it was never really discussed.

    I can't access the evo version of 1/60 archive as the FT version doesn't cover alot of the topics. I can't recall if some of the details (such as TEG at -8 was limited to 2 TE's in evo/ft) were from perfect guide or orange book, but White and Black book certainly doesn't go into detail on TEG at all, but instead talks about ATE (attack throw escape) and ETEG (evade throw escape guard).
     
  8. Pai_Garu

    Pai_Garu Well-Known Member

    Oh btw, Akai's tidbit is indeed posted in black book.
     
  9. Manjimaru

    Manjimaru Grumpy old man

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    Difference with ETEG and TEG is that with ETEG, you have the failed evades extra frames to buffer throw escapes and still guard avoiding whiffed throw... Which may appear as succesful ETEG, but often it isnt in actuality. (Evo training trial accepted it though)

    Because if opponent goes for immediate throw then throwescape inputs that would be within evades frames, and prevent a whiffed throw from coming out, would be too late to actually save you from immediate throw.. So actually youd have to input throwescapes with basically same window as in TEG's case for it to be a 'real' ETEG.

    I don't really know how good you are inputting ETEGs but this is a mistake I made myself back in Evo times, so I have a hunch it may be the source of some confusion..

    What Im saying is that its possible to do a ETEG so that whiffed throw DOESNT come out, and it is still actually failed ETEG..
     
  10. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

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    That's exactly what I'm saying.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is obviously not the case as you said yourself that it's almost impossible to do more than just 1 TE at -5. </div></div>
    Why is this obviously not the case?

    You're confusing what's humanly possible with that's technically possible. I proved the concept of a single TEG at low disadvantages, purely based on how they work.

    Just because a human can't perform 4 clean TEs lasting exactly 2 frames each, within a 10 frame window, doesn't mean it's impossible. Hence why I don't suggest the use of TEG at low disadvantages.
     
  11. Gernburgs

    Gernburgs Well-Known Member

    The input buffer is 10 frames or however long the recovery of the move is. For example, with Akira, when buffering Double Palms you enter the crouch dash (11 or 33) just after the last move hits (which may or may not leave you 10 frames or more.) I think the 10 frames is the minimum buffer you can have on any move but NOT the maximum buffer you can have on certain moves. So, when using Akira, if you Yoho and then do P>46P>3346P you have a shorter buffer to put in the Double Palm than if you do yoho and follow with 6KP>3346P which gives you a LONGER RECOVERY BUFFER to input the buffered DblPlm.
     
  12. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member Bronze Supporter

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    There seem to be a lot of confusion on this throw escape guard...

    I am quite sure that, successfully using throw escape guard (TEG) is more difficult than using evade-throw escape guard (ETEG). The throw escape frame window is the same, BUT to successfully hit Guard, you are limiting the amount of time you can enter the throw escapes by doing TEG.

    Example:

    1. You attack with a fast mid attack (i.e. elbow), and opponent blocks it.
    2. You are at -5 frames, opponent immediately attempt to throw you (12-frame throw). His throw will come out 7 frames after your character is able to move and react in game.
    3. The throw escape window is 10 frames before the throw actually comes out.
    4. Thus, you actually have only 3 frames to enter your throw escape+guard for a successful TEG at -5 frame situations.

    This is the reason why TEG is difficult to be used efficiently in game. If you can master it, awesome part of your VF resume. Hope this make sense.
     
  13. Gernburgs

    Gernburgs Well-Known Member

    That's not true. You always have the same window to TE (~8 frames before up to 10 frames after the throw comes out.) If you are at a disadvantage you just wait a few more frames to input you TE but the window doesn't change. You're forgetting the RECOVERY window one has too.
     
  14. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member Bronze Supporter

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    The same sentence, from my post -

    "The throw escape frame window is the same, BUT to successfully hit Guard, you are limiting the amount of time you can enter the throw escapes by doing TEG."

    In addition, the input buffer window is the same.

    Just to clarify, I am saying a "successful throw escape guard."
     
  15. Gernburgs

    Gernburgs Well-Known Member

    I see now. You meant for the G to cancel the buffer instead of animating a throw by accident. Sorry Akai.
     
  16. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member Bronze Supporter

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    No problem. No need to apologize :).

    I think I am correct, but I could still be wrong...just someone needs to prove it! So bring it on! :p
     
  17. Franz

    Franz Well-Known Member

    does anyone know how quick you have to be whil enetering a TE for a 0f throw?
     
  18. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member Bronze Supporter

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  19. Myke

    Myke Administrator Staff Member Content Manager Kage

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    akai, thanks for that! You managed to verbalise something I was having trouble getting my head around, and that is the intersection of the throw escape window with the input buffer.

    During low disadvantages, this intersection is small, as you illustrate. As the disadvantage grows, the window gets bigger.

    In fact, when a throw is guaranteed, its possible to enter a TE too early. Which might explain the many times where I could have sworn I TE'd successfully but it never eventuated on screen! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

    BTW, managed to find the Black Book source for the TE windows?
     
  20. akai

    akai Moderator Staff Member Bronze Supporter

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    Myke - yeah, on page 7 of the Black Book, last section (Throw Escape section), first column, second paragraph (just above the picture insert with Pai and Wolf)
     

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