Top 10 Moves

I love this move too much - I don't think there is anything so satisfying as blowing up a low rising attack with 9K to end the round.

I find this very important to remember. Think about it this way, no matter what the move is if your opponent knows how to blow it up, and guesses right the move isn't really safe. P and 2P are great examples of "safe" moves and yet they can get blown up. 9K is punishable on block and if the opponent doesn't know that or doesn't know a punish to really make you regret doing the move, disrespect them for that behavior.

 

Also worth mentioning is the fact that is not punishable when *side* blocked (15-6=9 frames of disadvantage).

Has anyone tested exactly when/how it beats low attacks?

 

OK i tested (vs Dural and Taka): OS seems to beat low punch from -3 (e.g. or blocked), both stances.

When the CPU blocks moves that leave me at -4 (e.g. or blocked) loses, both stances.

Also note that it sometimes beats low punch after moves with pushback which would have made the opponent's low punchwhiff anyway. For example starting position blocked > beats low punch. But there's a sweetspot, because after blocked my whiffs. But... it beats low punch after a blocked ! But only when near the opponent, otherwise both attacks whiff. Further testing required.

In the meantime i also tested OS . Contrary to popular belief, it doesn't appear to jump from the *very first* frame. OS blocked is -9 and the CPU's low punch counterhits me each time.

However at -8 (OS blocked) DOES beat low punch. So it's not a big deal since OS only has 1 move that is -9 block. Just remember to do something else if your gets blocked.

For reference, OS seems to beat low punch from +2 (blocked jab, superman punch or )

Also tested (vs Aoi): DS is a HDK (high reversal is sucessful but no damage, Vanessa reovers in IP).

 

So last week i was playing vs Maki last week and i blocked his OS and then his death scythe beat my defensive elbow. AFAIK that never happened in VF5 vanilla. So i thought i'd test to see what hanged for DS between versions. Here's what i confirmed:

It no longer beats never used to beat special highs anyway. Tested vs. OS vanessa set to then Death Scythe also vs. Pai set to .

It no longer auto-blocks special mid attacks. Tested vs. Wolf set to then Screw Hook.

It no longer sabakis SW attacks. Tested vs. Jacky set to then sweep.

 

Auto block... well, i can't find another word for it. As in take no damage from screw hook. As if vane had blocked it. The BT version had the same properties, since it worked against that shun throw, that left him BT and then he could mix up between BT throw or a special mid floater. BT could deal with both options.

As for special highs, yes, I'm pretty sure i had beat special highs like death scythe or DS in vanilla.

But anyway, these changes are trivial - the main one is that it doesn't sabaki sweeps anymore! That explains a couple of things TBH, like why i never managed to crush rising low kicks with it

 

I don't recall ever beating special highs in Vanilla.

 

OK then, editing my first post. Thank you for your feedback.

 

DS :
WS P
KK
3P
46KP
3K
6P
66K
1P+K
1P
63214 Throw


OS :
9P
6_K
66P+G
P+KK
6P+K
66K
6P
1P
Jump K
K+G

 

It took me almost a year but i think i finally managed to sort out my thoughts about VF5Fs vanessa's movelist.

As was the case last time my analysis is broken down in two parts, DS and OS, and moves are sorted into 5 categories, ranked A to E.

Spoiler: Legend

A for "A-game" or just "Key" moves: simply put, these moves win games. They are what a Vanessa player should aim for. They should receive top priority at all times.

B for "Bread and Butter" aka. Staple moves: These are low risk/low reward moves. While they will eventually win games for vane on their own, they are better used for setting up key moves. Think of them as the glue that holds vane's gameplay together.

C for... "Situational" (sue me) moves: these moves are high risk/high reward and meant to be used only under specific situations - they are either too slow or punishable to be used otherwise. While not mandatory, judicious use can really turn the game around for vane.

D for "Decent", OK moves: these moves are not necessarily bad, it's just that a Vanessa player will often realize he's won a game without having to fall back to using them. Mastering the small nuances that justify their use is probably the hardest part of learning to play Vanessa.

E for "Extraneous", Redundant moves: these moves either suffer from a major flaw or they are eclipsed (ooh, E for Eclipsed, nice) by other moves that serve the same function much better.

Again, conveniently enough, Key and Staple moves together can double as a makeshift top-ten. As usual, feel free to comment, disagree or even compile your own analysis! Vane's moveset is huge and i've yet to master it so i'm sure there's lots of mistakes - plus i'm expecting an uproar about DS as usual

EDIT: The following list is now obsolete! Taking your feedback into consideration, i have compiled a revised version of the list that can be found later in this thread.

 

Defensive Style

Spoiler: Key Moves

or or : Above average throw damage. Fast, anti-evade, anti-guard but vulnerable to attacks, short reach, backdash vulnerable, no followups, escapable. Use to beat guard, punish -10 standing, track.

(While Standing) : Subs for other characters' elbow. Practice buffering this move after blocked jabs or staggers. Fast, mid, CD fuzzy safe, stagger on CH, floor scrapes but linear, backdash vulnerable, no followups, trivial damage if unstaggered. Use to interrupt, poke, punish -13 crouching, chip, floor scrape, taunt.

: Your mid "launcher". Mid, long reach, hit-throw on NH but backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups, hit-throw may whiff on long range (-3 on NH). Use to damage, punish -17 crouching, beat throw, beat abare, sober.

: By default the best DS move (since it switches to OS). Mid, long reach, fuzzy safe, anti-sabaki, recovers in OS, stagger on NH but linear, no followups. Use to side pressure, stagger, space, floor scrape, switch styles.

Spoiler: Staple Moves

: Use p,k to punish. Hitcheck p,p or die. Fast, high/mid followups, +2 on block, combo on NH, nitaku on CH but high, linear, backdash vulnerable. Use to interrupt, poke, pressure, punish -12 standing.

: When in doubt use this. Then delay and use some more. Mid, long reach, high* sideturn followup, combo on RH and side hit but linear (full circular followup though). Use to pressure, punish -16, space, floor scrape.

: Mixup with throws after big advantage eg. after k+g CH or blocked CH floaters. Mid, long reach, +3 on block, nitaku on NH, +19 on CH but backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups, pushback can make f+pkg whiff. Use to pressure, beat abare, oki.

: Your only choice to consistently beat backdash. Mid, long reach, anti-backdash, full circular, KD on NH but slow, no followups. Use to gamble, KD, track, space, oki, taunt.

: Basic interrupt move. Fast, anti-high, recovers low, CD fuzzy safe, nitaku on CH but special low, poor reach, backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups, trivial damage. Use to interrupt, poke, abare, punish -12 lows, chip.

: Substitute for low punch whenever possible; crouching +2 is all you need in DS anyway. Long reach, anti-high, recovers low, foot crumple on CH but slow, special low, linear, no followups. Use to gamble, pressure*, abare, space, oki.

Spoiler: Situational moves

: Subs for jab when you need the 2f. Fast, +1 on block, nitaku on CH but high, short reach, linear, no followups, trivial damage. Use to interrupt, poke, pressure, punish -10 standing, chip, taunt.

: Subs for jab when you can spare the 2f. Fast, long reach, fuzzy safe, nitaku on NH, float on CH but high, linear, no followups. Use to interrupt, poke, side pressure.

: Stops certain strings. Abare if you think the reward will outweigh the risk. Long reach, tracks stomach, high followup nitakus on NH, combo on NH, sabaki vs HP/HE/HK/MP/EL but slow, high, backdash vulnerable. Use to gamble, abare, track stomach.

: Don't forget to read your opponent's mind first! Long reach, CD fuzzy safe, sabaki vs HK/MK/SK/KN, down on NH, slam float on sabaki hit but sluggish, high, linear, backdash vulnerable, no followups. Use to gamble, abare, KD/damage.

: Stops certain strings. Abare at our own risk. Mid, anti-high, sabaki vs LP/LK but short reach, backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups, CH can cause crouch stagger, trivial damage. Use to abare, chip, floor scrape.

: Vane's fastest KD on NH move. Mid, evasive (beats lows from -2?), KD/wallsplat on NH but poor reach, backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups. Use to KD, wall splat, punish -16 near walls, abare, taunt.

: Use after sideturn or if you think the opponent will backdash. Mid, long reach, crumple on side CH, backdash stagger, chargeable but linear, no followups. Use to side nitaku, wall stagger, space, brainfuck.

While Holding : Alternative to b,f+k,p. If you're gonna gamble, you might as well go for broke. Mid, tracks back, evasive (sway), stomach crumple on CH/RH but slow, short reach, backdash vulnerable, no followups, jab punishable. Use to gamble, risk, abare, beat throws, track back.

While Holding : Alternative to b,f+k,p. If you're gonna gamble, you might as well go for broke. Mid, tracks stomach, evasive (sway), stomach crumple on CH/RH but slow, short reach, backdash vulnerable, no followups, jab punishable. Use to gamble, risk, abare, beat throws, track stomach.

or or : Worth using to punish lows even with a 1/3 chance of being broken. Fast, anti-low guard, anti-crouchdash but vulnerable to attacks, short reach, backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups, escapable. Use to punish -10 crouching, beat guard.

: Low. Anti-mid/high sabaki/reversal. Hitcheck or die. High slam followup, combo on CH but backdash vulnerable, linear, elbow punishable*, -6 on NH. Use to risk, beat abare.

: Low. Beats high abare and evade. Will get you killed. Fullcircular, anti-high, recovers low but backdash vulnerable, no followups, knee punishable, -5 on NH. Use to abare, track.

: Low. IP will get you killed unless you side CH or wall stagger the opponent with the low kick. Long reach, tracks stomach, anti-high but slow, backdash vulnerable, no followups, recovers in IP on hit or whiff, knee punishable, trivial damage. Use to gamble, risk, abare, wall stagger, whittle, track stomach, taunt.

Spoiler: Decent moves

: Inherited shadow slicer's safety & pushback. A pity it's high. Long reach, fullcircular, CD fuzzy safe, pushback, sideturned nitaku on hit but slow, high, backdash vulnerable, no followups. Use to gamble, side pressure, track, sober.

: Use to deter opponents from evading to vane's front. Party if it hits. Tracks stomach, head crumple on hit but high, short reach, backdash vulnerable, no followups. Use to damage, punish -17 highs, beat throws, track stomach, sober.

: Use to deter opponents from evading to vane's back. Mid, tracks back, high/mid followups, combo on NH/CH but backdash vulnerable, -4 on NH (followups are ALSO -3/-2 on NH). Use to pressure, track back, sober.

: Vane's only crouch stagger move. Mid followup, combo on NH/stagger on crouch hit but backdash vulnerable, linear. Use to pressure, crouch stagger.

: Vane's only move that recovers BT. Mid, evasive (beats lows from -2?), recovers BT but short reach, backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups, CH counts as back hit. Use to risk, abare, brainfuck, taunt.

: Your (other) mid launcher. Good luck setting it up. Mid, long reach, slam float on NH but slow, linear, no followups, range can make followup whiff. Use to gamble, space, damage, beat throws.

Spoiler: Extraneous moves

: Funny how no MP inashi makes this useless. Anti-HP, anti-CH but vulnerable to everything else. Use to interrupt, risk, chip.

: Oki suprise, pointless otherwise. Long reach, tracks back, knock down on hit but slow, high, backdash vulnerable, no followups, recovers in IP, CH counts as air hit. Use to gamble, KD, track back, oki, taunt.

: The drawbacks don't outweigh the 1f difference from k. Fast, mid, CD fuzzy safe, hit throw to Arm Hold on CH but linear, backdash vulnerable, no followups, -2 on NH, trivial damage if escaped. Use to interrupt, poke, chip.

: Opponents know how to crouch the second hit nowadays. Use f+p if you want to fish for CH with the followup. Mid, high CH floater followup, CD fuzzy safe, combo on NH but backdash vulnerable, linear (semicircular followup though). Use to poke.

: Input error for df+p+k or db+p+k. Use b+p+k or d+k to beat mid sabakis/reversals. Mid, anti-sabaki, CD fuzzy safe, slam float on NH but slow, backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups. Use to gamble, damage.

: Opponents know how to deal with its shenanigans nowadays. Use backdash > heel kick for similar effects. Mid, long reach, evasive, chargeable, cancellable, stomach crumple on NH but sluggish, linear, no followups. Use to gamble, abare, space, switch styles, brainfuck, taunt.

or : Low. Round ender. Long reach, anti-high, recovers low but linear, no followups, elbow punishable, -6 on NH, trivial damage. Use to risk, abare, chip.

 

Offensive Style

Spoiler: Key moves

: Standard 14f high float starter. Fast, slam float on NH but high, backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups. Use to interrupt, punish -14 standing, damage, sober 1+.

: Special high. Demoralizing float on CH. Style points. Mixup with f,f+k to deter your opponents from ducking too much. Tracks stomach, g-cancellable, pushback, temple crumple on CH but backdash vulnerable, no followups. Use to beat abare, track stomach, space, brainfuck, taunt, sober 1+.

: Kills evade and backdash. Never guess a throw direction again! Long reach, anti-backdash, anti-guard but vulnerable to attacks*, no followups. Use to space, oki.

: Anti-LP but also anti-backdash. Long reach, anti-backdash, anti-low, floor scrape, +2 on block, float on NH but slow, special high, no followups, CH may count as air hit. Use to gamble, punish flipkick, pressure, abare, damage, beat throws, space, oki, floor scrape, sober 1+.

: The swiss army knife of CH floaters. Mid, long reach, high sideturn/mid force crouch followups, takedown cancelable, combo on NH, float on CH/crouch NH but linear (full circular followup though). Use to punish -16 lows, beat abare, space, oki, brainfuck.

Spoiler: Staple Moves

or or : Average throw damage. Fast, anti-guard but vulnerable to attacks, short reach, backdash vulnerable, no followups, escapable. Use to punish -10 standing, nitaku, track.

: Better options than the DS jab. Fast, high/mid followups, +2 on block, combo on NH (more vs Taka), nitaku on CH but high, linear (semicircular followup though). Use to interrupt, punish -12 highs, poke, pressure.

: Complements qcf+k. Subs for jab when you can spare the 4f. Long reach, tracks back, high* KD followup, CD fuzzy safe, combo on CH/RH but high, backdash vulnerable. Use to poke, pressure, track back, sober 1.

: Delayble, hitchekable. No downsides. Mid, long reach, high KD/mid sober followup, combo on hit, nitaku on CH but backdash vulnerable, linear. Use to pressure, KD, low wall splat, space, sober 1.

: Safe side crumple starter. Also anti-backdash & wall splat. Also a "get off me" move due to the massive pushback. Mid, long reach, anti-backdash, knock down on NH, crumple on side NH but linear, no followups. Use to KD, side damage, wall splat, space.

: Basic interrupt move. Fast, anti-high, recovers low, CD fuzzy safe, nitaku on CH but special low, short reach, backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups, trivial damage. Use to interrupt, poke, abare, punish -12 lows, chip.

Spoiler: Situational Moves

: Subs for p+k when you need the 2f. Fast, mid, high (KD) followups, cd fuzzy safe, combo on NH, nitaku on CH, side throw on side CH but short reach, backdash vulnerable, linear. Use to poke, KD, interrupt, punish -14 lows.

: Subs for f,f+k+g near walls when you need the 3f. Fast, mid, long reach, anti-backdash, wall stagger on NH, nitaku on CH but linear, no followups. Use to interrupt, wall stagger, space, humiliate.

: Anti-shenanigans. Mid, high sober/mid IS-cancellable followup, floor scrape, CD fuzzy safe, combo on NH, back dash stagger, crumple on side CH but backdash vulnerable, linear (semicircular followups though). Use to poke, side nitaku, floor scrape, sober 1.

: Basic high risk/high reward mid floater. Mid, anti-low*, float on NH but backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups, knee punishable. Use to risk, damage, beat throws, beat abare, sober 0+, humiliate.

: Low. Anti-mid/high sabaki/reversal but also anti-backdash. Long reach, anti-backdash, high KD followup, combo on CH but linear, elbow punishable. Use to risk, space.

: Low. Anti-mid/high sabaki/reversal. Also subs for b+p when you can spare the 5f. Long reach, tracks back, hit-throw on CH but no followups, knee punishable. Use to risk, beat abare, track back, space.

: Low. And safe? With good reach? And +frames on CH?! Wanna bet it'll be gone next version? Long reach, tracks stomach, anti-high, recovers low but slow, no followups, -4 on NH, trivial damage. Use to gamble, abare, track stomach, space, chip.

Spoiler: Decent moves

: No real downside except being a high-high string. Fast, long reach, tracks stomach, high KD followup, combo on CH/RH (more vs taka) but high, -2 on NH. Use to interrupt, punish taka/pushback -15 standing, poke, track stomach.

: Vs Taka or near walls only. Long reach, anti-backdash, sober, +2 on block, KD on NH (more near walls/vs taka) but high, linear, no followups. Use to poke, pressure, KD, space, sober 1, humiliate.

: Overshadowed by f,f+k. Use when you expect a kick sabaki i guess. Mid, flop float on CH but backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups. Use to beat abare.

: Non-punishable yet damaging mid. Pity the range is so poor. Mid, hit-throw on NH but short reach, backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups, hit-throw may whiff at long range. Use to damage, beat throws, beat abare, sober 1.

: Hitcheck > IS punch apparently. Mid, long reach, anti-backdash, wall stagger, nitaku on CH* but linear, no followups*, pushback. Use to wall stagger, space.

: Why would you want to switch back to DS? Mid, long reach, fuzzy safe, stagger on NH but linear, no followups. Use to side pressure, stagger, space, floor scrape, switch styles.

: Hitcheckable mini-float starter. Mid, mid slam followup, combo on NH but backdash vulnerable, linear. Use to pressure, damage, sober 1.

: Not that evasive. Style points. Mid, long reach, even on block, chargeable, cancellable*, KD/crumple on NH but slow (sluggish), backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups. Use to gamble, KD/damage, brainfuck.

: Overshadowed by uf+p. Mid, long reach, anti-low*, fuzzy safe, float on NH but slow, linear, no followups, float may whiff at long range, CH counts as air hit. Use to gamble, damage, space, oki.

Spoiler: Extraneous moves

: Special high. Bait and input after backdash. Tracks stomach, hit-throw on NH but backdash vulnerable, no followups. Use to damage, sober 1.

: Opponents duck this on reaction nowadays. Long reach, anti-backdash, fullcircular, anti-low*, +4 on block, sideturn nitaku on NH, combo on CH but sluggish, special high, no followups. Use to gamble, oki, space, track, sober 2.

: Overshadowed by f,f+k crouch stagger to punish non-Taka lows. Mid, high KD followup, combo on RH/crouch guard but short reach, backdash vulnerable, linear, -2 on NH, trivial damage on CH. Use to punish -16 lows sub-optimally or Taka's grizzly.

: Overshadowed by f,f+k. Mid, long reach, hit-throw on CH but backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups. Use to beat abare.

: Overshadowed by df+p+k. Float filler. Mid, fuzzy safe, nitaku on CH but backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups, trivial damage. Use to chip.

: Overshadowed by db+k+g. Shorter range than the DS version. Mid, long reach, slam float on NH but slow, backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups. Use to gamble, damage.

: Opponents know how to deal with its shenanigans nowadays. Use backdash > leg bomber for similar effects. Mid, long reach, evasive, chargeable, cancellable, stomach crumple on NH but sluggish, linear, no followups. Use to gamble, damage, brainfuck, taunt.

or : Low. Round ender. Input error for db+p. Long reach, anti-high, recovers low but linear, no followups, knee punishable, -6 on NH, trivial damage. Use to risk, abare, side wall stagger, chip, space, humiliate.

 

...and here's the reason i finally bit the bullet and finalized my spreadsheet in order to get this list done.

I originally wrote the wall of text that is about to follow and intended to post it in a different thread. Then i decided against it because the Original Poster did not merit all the bile you are about to read and i decided to grace him with a more lighthearted answer. I kept the unposted text (as i usually do) but mentioned it to Manjimaru over some beers (i get even MORE talkative with some alcohol in me, who knew?!). When i sent it to him he advised me to post it, possibly in a different thread. I'm posting it here because there's a DS/OS comparison at the end.

Be warned: some of it is wrong. But at least it will hopefully get the ball rolling.

Spoiler: nerfs from VF5 vanilla DS rant

Almost all of vane's defensive techniques were nerfed from VF5 vanilla:

• DS sabaki used to work vs HK too, as well as float on CH.
• DS sabaki used to give frames on NH and float on CH; now all non-sabaki hits yield a funky blastback that has neither followups (except against the wall) nor meaty setups (afaik). So using this move to beat a throw no longer rewards vanessa with a pressure game. But on the other hand in VF5 vanilla it didn't work on HK and it was less safe on block. So while it's debatable if the new knockdown constitutes a buff, i concede that this move was certainly not nerfed.
• DS sabaki used to work vs Sweeps.
• DS reversal used to work vs MP too.
  [*)DS reversal is gone. The new DS IP functions similarly except it requires vane to be in stance to use.
• DS is gone.
• DS and HP/HK/MP/MK/SK reversals are gone.

So, with the exception of , all of her defensive techniques were nerfed.

How about her DS offensive techniques? Let's have a look:

• DS was nerfed. No pushback, no crouchstagger, no longer fuzzy safe.
• DS was nerfed. Shorter reach, no pushback, no longer fuzzy safe. Some might point out that the hit-throw damage has "increased"; indeed, however the increase is negligeable compared to the increase of the lifebar from VF5 vanilla to VF5FS. Sucessfully landing the hit-throw means it removes a smaller % of the opponents lifebar in this version. Oh, btw, the hit-throw still doesn't work on max range. Don't expect any Splash Mountain teleports if you hit the opponent with the edge of your toe.
• The guaranteed damage on CH from her DS was replaced with a guessing game. No crouchguardstagger, no hit-throw when the opponent hits the wall.
• Her DS jab string was nerfed. FFS, it was already the worst jab string in the game. Why do something like that?
• Even shadow slicer was nerfed. Wow, really? Her signature move? Just... wow.
• Boomerang Hook is no longer fuzzy safe, is 1f slower, intruder hook/intercept body blow are slower and less safe etc. I quit, it's really disheartening going through all the nerfs.

Spoiler: underwhelming VF5FS new DS moves and so-called buffs rant

And what did DS gain in return? a shoulder ram, a bunch of moves, and a new stance. Let's see:

• The shoulder ram is pointless vs anyone who can unstagger and frankly is poor substitute for all the stance switching backhands and knees she lost; oh yeah, did we mention those are gone too?
• is high and launches only on CH. Gee, i wonder what sort of move is most frequently used to abare. It's not low punch is it? It is? Damn. Oh well, at least DS vane still has to launch an opponent who tries to low punch from -2. Right? RIGHT?!
• is combo filler. That's it. Outside of combos it produces the worst possible kind of slam imaginable - the one you can't combo off worth a damn.
• is a slow CH floater. Look, it even crouches, sweet. What's that? It's L*P? Well maybe it's super damaging? I mean, maybe, if you manage to CH with a 22f move you are rewarded with half-a-lifebar combo? No? It does 60 dmg, 70 dmg to superlightweights on a good day? Carry on then.
• Surely the new stance is good, right? Right? No? It will get you killed if you're playing against anyone who has taken the time to learn that (1) evade CD avoids all her options (2) jump back avoids all her options (3) their character has at least 1 move that stuffs all of vane's IP options?.

So that's about it when it comes to her new moves. Raises some questions, huh? But surely some of her existing DS moves were buffed, right?

• Well, there's . Not itself, its properties are identical to the VF5 vanilla version.

...and that's it. Jab finally has a followup but lost CH float and / "mixup". was made faster, sure, at the expense of frame advantage on block and on NH. And it no longer side crumples. Why? Because fuck DS, that's why. is +1 on block and hit but it's 1f slower. , , strings, sweep, low punch, WS punch, back charge kick etc. remain mostly unchanged. Unchanged and mediocre.

Was that really all of DS vane's movelist? Did i forget anything? Let me check the command list. Oh, i missed . Hmm, it's high and yields nothing on CH. So use if you have already sideturned an opponent who hasn't learned to evade > dash cancel i guess. And heel kick is apparently less damaging, has 1 less active frame and is less safe in this version so put that under the nerfed moves list i guess. Oh, and her back turning mid kick is 2f slower - seriously, who the fuck cares at this point.

The bottom line is that DS is so nerfed it's has become pointless to try and play from that style when OS is available

Spoiler: VF5FS OS is better than DS in every way rant

Let us count the ways OS is superior to DS:

• OS rewards reading your opponent more. DS sabakis are fun and all but correctly reading your opponent yields 60 dmg, tops. Anticipate a low punch while in OS? from disadvantage or from advantage, opponent loses half their lifebar. Anticipate a power move? Evade > OS , opponent loses half their lifebar.
• Oh, did we mention that DS has no move that sidecruples on NH (or Recovery Hit)? I sort of implied it when i mentioned DS no longer sidecrumples. Just making sure.
• OS has usable jab string mixups. Mind you, it's not breathtaking, but at least it's not akira/goh level of simplicity like the DS one. And if the opponent tries to low punch after the jab they pay for it with a half-a-lifebar combo from OS CH - not a stagger and a canned kick from DS stagger .
• OS actually has a mid-launcher. Now, in VF5 vanilla Jeneric corrected me when i tried to point this out by saying that "DS has a mid launcher, it's DS ". In this version Jeneric has disappeared and DS is so out-damaged by every other mid launcher in the game that i... just... seriously? It does half damage FFS, it's not a launcher, it's a bad joke. Even her OS hit-throw does more damage!
• OS has far-reaching moves AND moves that advance a lot. DS has shadow slicer and... a lot of trouble vs any opponent spacing.
• There are more OS moves with pushback! Meaning VF5FS OS is more suited to the old spacing playstyle than VF5FS DS.
• OS has more strings. Mo' strings mo' pressure, meaning OS is better at playing offensively too. Obviously.
• OS has more moves that are + on block, meaning more frame traps are possible.
• OS has at least as good anti-sidestep moves as DS in this version. Since getting hit while sidestepping counts as a CH in VF5FS, death scythe covers her stomach side just as well as boomerang hook. Towards her back DS is, as always, a decent mid poke - but OS will now combo on CH for a knockdown, something DS lacks. Sure, DS has shadow slicer but it has been pointed out repeatedly by players much more adept than me that slow circulars are pointless in this game since evade > dash cancel can block them.
• OS still is leagues above DS when it comes to punishing. The main problems with DS punishment remain the same: no high floater until 17f, no mid floater until... 22f. Wow. I just realized that while DS high punishment received a buff in the form of DS , DS mid punishment was nerfed. She used to be able to punish sweeps with which was 20f. FFS, was there any thought actually going into her DS changes? Why nerf her low sweep punishment?! I give up.

No wonder every new player learns OS and every vanessa player transitioning from previous versions says OS is better than DS in this version. Sure some OS moves were nerfed (ex. OS , , ) or axed ( string, string etc.) but other moves were buffed (ex. OS , string, string, string etc). DS was nerfed and... nothing, it's just nerfed to hell.

I await impatiently for the inevitable hate.

I also await impatiently for masterpo to hand over his "longest wall of text" award

EDIT: I learned how to use the spoiler function so Masterpo never gave me my award

EDIT: Chibitox pointed out i'm wrong about her sabakis. If i had to rephrase, i'd start the rant as follows:

Spoiler: Revised DS defense Rant

Most of her sabakis were slightly nerfed from VF5 vanilla, probably in order to compensate for the fact that they no longer clash with throws which would made them OP:

• DS now yields guaranteed damage but no longer works on MP.
• DS sabaki no longer works on sweeps.
• DS sabaki yields nitaku but no longer works vs HK nor floats on CH.
• DS sabaki works vs HK, "blasts back" on all non-sabaki hits. Not sure that's actually a nerf TBH.
• DS sabaki is gone.
• High reversals? Gone.
• Mid reversals? Gone.
• The new DS IP reversal replaces vanilla , works vs LK but requires to be in stance to use.

So vanessa's sabakis were altered, some might even say for the better, but vanessa lost her reversals. So overall her defensive techniques seem more limited. How about her DS offensive techniques? Let's have a look...

etc.

Thank you for your feedback, it's helping me understand Vanessa better so keep it coming please!

 

tldr ... that being said OS is clearly a stronger stance than DS, but I could never win a match against GT playing in OS.

 

It seems you don' t have understood what DS 1P+K is meant for ^^

DS has PK now it's worth mentioning

While it's true DS 44K used to float on CH, it really hardly happened cause the move is meant to be used in a disadvanyage situation in the first place and is super slow. It's kindah biased to mention CH will never happen for 1P+K and complaining for 46K CH float lol.
At the same time 46KP frames on guard/hit got a MAJOR buff (+1/2 to +4/7). With the removal of throw clash the move comes back to life, it was pretty useless in vanilla because of clash that negated sabaki purpose. Now sabaki with this move= nitaku situation, I'll trade that with the CH float any day.

 

Chefboy, would you mind sharing with us (well, me, i'm curious) why DS is better vs GT? Is it due to ? Or due to the low throws? The sabakis?

Chibitox, you are right for DS jab~kick, i forgot to mention it. So i updated my rant post

Yes, i still don't know how DS is supposed to be used. I personally use it as a mid-range poke since in those situations it becomes neutral/advantage on block. Sometimes it counterhits, sure, but I don't exactly throw a party when that happens. Advice on how/when to use it is welcome.

Meh for . BEGIN EDIT: Meh, even after our shoutbox discussion i'm not convinced. The + frames on block of the followup are better, yes, but in the past it used to be special high so opponents were more reluctant to interrupt it. Nowadays there's nothing really stopping them from low punching (or worse).

As for the followup's + frames on hit... OK. I admit it's better. So hone your mind reading skills everybody!

But i maintain that the fact that it used to float on CH made it much more appealing to use. Because if the mind reading goes wrong and the opponent does not jab or elbow, well, they might really regret it. Damnit, I remember landing this all the time! But maybe was using it from small advantage, maybe it's the nostalgia goggles, i don't know.

I'll edit my rant post to reflect this, although not too much, otherwise it will lose its... charm END EDIT.

Finally, as for the "no longer throw clashes" part... again who cares? If you beat your opponent's throw with they are probably GLAD you didn't try one of vanessa's more damaging moves.

Now, i'm not saying is not supposed to be used. It's under my "situational" moves - not the "redundant" ones - and i do use it frequently myself. Because why not, it's not vanessa has something better to do if i guess an elbow is coming anyway. What is she going to do - evade OS ? Afterall, most players do tend to "autopilot" and elbow predictably (as long as i'm using sparingly!).

Plus it stops some silly mixups like after blocking jacky's or wolf's or Brad's stance pressure nonsense. Hmm, I should mention that actually

 

This move is one of the best (for me) Ultra safe -1 on guard +2 on NH +1 on guard ST, u can follow with the crush jaw... (only P or 2P can stop it)
It stops high strings and you get combo, a good round starter.
Very useful against aoi s "dance" reversal or jeff's "come on"
U can connect from far away too...
I mean a low combo starter (even if it s on CH only) It must be a good move

Lol us erdaug =) I think it s the crush jaw but not sure. But still interested =)

 

Actually Maki... i have a completely different experience when using DS ? Is that even possible? For example, the way i usually employ it, from a mid distance, it's actually neutral or even + on block (this is why i put "Use to pressure*" with an asterisk). In theory from +1 crush jaw will beat low punch and all 12f jabs. Which is pretty awesome. And if opponents learn and try to block, well, there's always throw

On the othr hand, when i tried using it as a round starter, guessing my opponent will do a jab or high floater, i only scored a recovery hit, so +2f no combo. Which is not bad mind you, just nothing to write home about either.

Same deal when i try to use it to stop high strings, it's very rare for me to score a CH. I won't lie, i've scored a foot crumple a couple of times that way but i'm guessing it was because the high followup was either very slow or my opponent tried to delay it. But what usually happens is that the move flies over my head as i'm doing DS , then i poke my opponent's ankle and get recovery hit +2. Which, again, is decent, and which is why i recommend substituting low punch with this move as much as possible.

I agree on the "connect from far away" part though - most of the time when i score a CH it's because my opponent tried to backdash after getting their move blocked. Unfortunately, sometimes in that situation when i try to do the followup combo to the foot crumple whiffs

I tend to use DS CH against Aoi's tenchi but against jeffry's threat stance, hmm, i hadn't thought of that, thanks for the tip! Wouldn't it lose to the mid followup though?

 

DS 1P+K= stance killer. Throwing it out against Aoi YY in closed stance = a 70 pts combo, if she guards youre are mega safe. It's a good moove to use against her after she techs roll.

Sarahs tries her FL P2K just frame after a + move on block to FL ? Use 1P+K

Shun's sleeping on the floor, what moves will you use with DS vane that will not whiff and has good range ?
Also beats his back turned sabaki shenanigans.This one is a key move for that matchup.

now 46KP:
Using 46KP from a disadvantage, (I hope from advantage you will agree she has better moves )
VF5C:
opponent throws = throw clash no damage on opponent
opponent elbows = successful sabaki +4 and damage (NO FLOAT!)

VFFS
opponent throws = +7 and damage
opponent elbows = successful sabaki +7 and damage

This part shows that imo you don't really understand the use of the move or sabaki in general. You seem to see it only as a "elbow punisher". Of course a move like 3P+K would be better if you guess a throw but the purpose of a sabaki is to NOT HAVE TO GUESS beetween a throw and a mid in a nitaku situation. It's not not to be the best reverse nitaku otherwise it would be broken lol.

From the opponent point the "I try to throw you and get a throw clash" and "i try to throw you got damaged then got 63214+P+Ged" there's half life bar difference

 

VS sarah FLA use , got it. Thanks for the tip Chibitox. VS Shun lie down i tend to use and shoulder ram. VS Aoi just mentioned i tend to use to beat tenchi but, sure, why not, i'll try . I fear kingo can probably react to it on sight though

The rest about , i've already edited my rant post after our shoutbox discussion. Also, meh, i still think the move was nerfed but whatever. Doesn't affect the move's rating anyway. Remains situational in both versions.

In fact, i'm starting to think that posting the rant here was an awfully bad idea. Nobody is commenting the move breakdown and ranking itself. So, for example, everyone agrees defensive elbow is more than just a decent move in this version - while boomerang hook is just that, a decent move? Interesting.

I thought it was a typo in my excel spreadsheet TBH but, hey, if all we have to comment on is the rant post i've warned everyone i'm posting because there's a DS/OS comparison at the end, cool, i must have done a bang up job with the top ten then