tier list

Vanity you just keep on repeating yourself without analysing. Excuse me but your argument doesn't even make sense. Please read some older posts to refresh you memory.

 

you just stated that 5/6 players that were not in the same league as the japanese used "high tier" characters. Which i am saying is likely because proportionally, most people probably used those characters.

Also, why was there no jacky in the top 8, if he is such a high tier character?

 

Probably cause there is something like 30-40 (if even that) active VF gathering goers in the States in general which is not enough to build general "proportional" theories on.

Look, this is getting rather silly from everybody.

1) If you loose to someone in VF it's cause of their skill, not their use of character.
2) Tiers definatly exist and have always existed.

Those 2, however hard they seem to fit togheter, both apply to VF. It's rediculus how well balanced the game is at the end of the day when there are characters that are different gamesystems within the game (like LeiFei, Shun, Aoi, Van etc). With that I mean that in other games, lets take Mortal Kombat or SF2 or whatever - all the characters are basicly variations of the same gamesystem while you can have a char that doesn't have a punchspeed attack or works best from a dissadvantage in VF and still balance it... and it's much more fun this way.

Ask 10 persons to do a complete tierlist and you will get 10 different tierlists based on what they think or have heard from others - not what they know. If out of experience: the game is to advanced for anybody to even know how to play with half of the characters equally good. All it takes is something like 3 really good chibitas to make the general public think lion is absolute toptier.

Is Goh as good as Aki on paper? No. Would Arashi probably kick all of our asses? Yes.

Vanity; If you don't think movelists and stats on them count though try playing Dural.

/KiwE

 

ok, fine, dural is high tier .

seriously though, of course dural is overpowered.

 

If Dural is obviously "high tier" (which she is) due to superior move stats then surely this can be applied to a lesser extent to the other characters. Dural is obviously overpowered but if you come down the scale and look at the other characters then you can't say that everyone is exactly equal, you'd be either wrong or lying.

Example:

Dashing elbow with Akira is the same number of frames as Goh's , the same hit level, but it recovers quicker on guard, is advantage on normal hit (whereas Goh's is even) and you can combo on MC (which you cannot with Goh, all you get is +4)

Now obviously Goh has his upsides too (better throws) but in the end someone has to have more practical and overall "better" moves than other people. The difference is very slight, so it doesn't really affect play at all, and the better player does matter a hell of a lot more than the "better" character.

But not everyone is exactly even, so therefore tiers must exist even if they are so unimportant that they don't really alter any results.

 

Tiers are not provable in VF. Sure, akira's and kage's are always a driving force in Japan tournaments, but those characters are simply more popular. You can say this is because of tiers, or that it isn't, but a final answer wont happen.

Chibita's akira vs Chibita's lion is a retarted way to look at it, because it is impossible. My shun is better than my akira, does that mean shun is better? Of course not.

Some moves will always be better on paper than other moves. If you look only at moves by their paper stats, then shun is an incredibly weak character, and lei fei is godly. VF's system seems to automatically balance the game.
For instance: Vanessa's left hand hold.
+ obviously is her best option, as it is something like 100 damage if it connects. This also makes it the worst option in a way, as the opponent will be unlikely to get hit by it.

If X and Y are your options, the fact that X is strong automatically makes X weaker and Y stronger. Unlike most other fighting games, you can always beat whatever the opponent will do if you plan accordingly.

 

[ QUOTE ]
SiYkO said:



If X and Y are your options, the fact that X is strong automatically makes X weaker and Y stronger. Unlike most other fighting games, you can always beat whatever the opponent will do if you plan accordingly.

[/ QUOTE ]


That isn't the point, if Akira's X is stronger than Goh's X and Akira's Y is stronger than Goh's Y then in that situation Akira is stronger than Goh. If Akira's moves mean this is the outcome in a lot/most situations then it would be fair to say that Akira is better than Goh.(I'm not saying that, it's just an example.)

I personally think tiers are pointless and agree with you about the game system being balanced enough to avoid any character being too good, but that doesn't mean the tiers aren't there (whatever they are).

 

[ QUOTE ]
vanity said:

you just stated that 5/6 players that were not in the same league as the japanese used "high tier" characters. Which i am saying is likely because proportionally, most people probably used those characters.

Also, why was there no jacky in the top 8, if he is such a high tier character?

[/ QUOTE ]

vanity you are so confused. You're not even reading what i wrote before.Did i say Itabashi and Kurita were in a different class cause they picked top tier characters? Imagine me playing tennis with Pete Sampras. The guy can surely beat me with any racket/strings? But does that mean the racket/strings is not important? And that all rackets /strings are the same?

Itabashi is like Sampras. He can play a lower tier character and win simply because he's in a different skill class. Now you don't see Shuns winning tourneys in Japan now do you? BTW i think Shun is not low tier, he's more like mid tier.

No Jacky in the top 8? Like i said, just because a character is top tier doesn't mean the player doesn't have to do any work. You're always confusing tiers with automatic winning.
BTW, a shit player using Dural will probably lose to a good player using Goh. If the two players were of a similar skill instead, what do you think the outcome will be? Akira is like Dural to a lesser extent.

SiYkO,

Lei is godly on paper? Did you notice that his P guarded = -4 and -1 on normal hit?

 

[ QUOTE ]
Kimble said:
SiYkO,

Lei is godly on paper? Did you notice that his P guarded = -4 and -1 on normal hit?

[/ QUOTE ]

i am familiar with his frames. I'm saying how silly it is to compare moves on paper, look at many of his stance moves, DM p p+k comes to mind as standing out in insane frame stats. Of course, he is balanced because of the disadvantage of the requirement to shift stances, and lack of defensive techniques from the stances.

 

DM P P+K is not as good in practice because it's hard to get your opponent (esp a high level one) to block it. It's quite similar to Akira's . It's very easy to interrupt or evade it.

 

thats my point. It is not godly, but on paper it is. Any other character would KILL for a 10 frame H M string that is +7 on block.

 

Leave it to me to do this. In chess theory, there is something called "dynamic equality". Dynamic equality arises when the winning chances for both sides seem about even given master play. As a rule, positions exhibiting dynamic equality are wildly imbalanced...perhaps white has good chances for a kingside attack and a better hold on the center but black has initiative on the queenside and the two bishops. The winner is the one who better uses the tools at his disposal & misses fewer tactical opportunities.

I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of matchups in VF exhibit this kind of dynamic equality & as more matches are played & the game is further tweeked, we can only expect the imbalances to continue to be in favor of the player who better uses his character's tools & misses fewer shots.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Now you don't see Shuns winning tourneys in Japan now do you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see any Sarahs or Pais doing it either and (according to Arcadia) they're top tier.

/KiwE

 

KiwE,

I actually think Akira is stronger than both Pai or Sarah even though i would consider them both top tier. Akira has the damage and weight advantage that Pai and Sarah don't have. In critical situations that could mean win or lose.

sanjuro,

How can you compare chess to VF? Chess starts equal unlike VF.

 

I quite like the chess analogy Sanjuro but then I'm a chess player...

 

like sanjuro said, chess doesnt start equal. One player gets to go first and two of the main peieces are different on each side.

 

But both sides are balanced in the sense that you can't have a top tier King that can move 5 steps all of a sudden. That's why i think VF and chess are different.

 

[ QUOTE ]
I actually think Akira is stronger than both Pai or Sarah even though i would consider them both top tier. Akira has the damage and weight advantage that Pai and Sarah don't have.

[/ QUOTE ]

VF is to advanced to make all paperstats comparisions between things and moves which has been done throughout this thread. If a character for example has great sabakis -6 isn't such a big deal as compared to someone who hasn't. If you can impose a shldrm threatgame at -3 it doesn't say so either. Ask any Goh player btw - 3p is awesome ingame (this is not a joke). There are to many secondary factors to do just head on comparisions between moves and one way of illustrating this is with your own quote:

I take it with more dmg you mean Yoho (and stuff like the famous Yoho>p>shldrm>byakko combo)? I don't think anybody in their rightful mind who knows about VF would take a Yoho over a DC in their movelist - would you?

The point is that neither yours or mine opinion of tiers (or Aki) matter for shit compared to someone who has a card with 25k matches on still. It's all hersay and passed down opinions from others until one has played a char around those numbers (or even a third). Besides, the more I read the more I feel you're not talking about "tiers" as such but just want to place Aki in a supertier (which he isn't). If so I would put more merit into Arcadias tierlist then yours.

/KiwE (Has whined at Aki as much as the next fellow, just gets bored playing him)

 

I think the three strongest characters are Akira, Jacky and Kage but i also consider Sarah, Pai and Lau to be top tier. The statement i just made was very general and not intended as an argument.

BTW, i don't even know what Arcadia's tier list is. I came to those conclusions after watching many many VF vids myself.