Throw breaking

I don't know that I agree with this. It's kind of like saying that knowing frames is critical basics to learning to play VF. I think that knowing this stuff is a requirement for taking your game to the next level, but really don't think it's necessary for someone starting out to know the precise disadvantage they're in and options out of each in order to have fun and play a decent game.

The flip side is that some people (myself, if no one else) know these things on an intuitive level, even if they don't know them in theory. I don't know the exact frame disadvantage I have after landing Brad's PPK combo, but I do know that on hit I'm unsafe and my next move is to CD fuzzy guard. This understanding I've developed not from reading charts, but from playing and seeing what works.

I fear that one of the reasons people get turned away from VF is because our community can get so caught up on precision and theory (after all, I think we can agree that it's one of the beauties of VF).

Bottom line I would advocate is that if you find yourself getting nailed consistently after a certain move, head to the charts and see what your options are. Choose organic (bottom-up) growth over directed growth (top-down) - it's more fun.

(all this posted with mad respect to your game and skills Tricky)

 

frames are crticial in so much as you need to know when you can fuzzy and when you have to use other options.

 

Here's the thing I find is that knowing the defensive frames is just as important as knowing the pace of VF (1-2hits) and knowing how the fundamental pokes in this game work. Most people don't know either and go "LOL 3BUTTONS HURR" or "THIS GAME IS DEEP AND HARD TO MASTER1!"

It's not hard to practice these, and by having just your Fuzzy and CD Fuzzy down (recognizing how it looks and when to properly apply it), you'll know in match when something leaves in Fuzzy disadvantage, CD Fuzzy disadvantage, Nitaku (without the flash) without having to memorize every string/move in the game.

Sorry for the off topic. OP just remember to ETE or TEG when you flash yellow. Reacting to that is the first step to turning the tables without feeling overwhelmed.

 

Ah hah! this is what I needed. I love rules of thumb!

 

ANDRAMELECH,

I hope you don't mind me being forward and telling you the best way to practice throw evades (imo).
--note: you have to press G first then p + a direction

Go to dojo, put the CPU on level 5, doesn't matter the opponent, and practice holding g+ p and a direction with guard EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Mix up which direction you are holding. At this point it doesn't matter wether you guess right or not. You are just training the muscle memory.

Now, its important that you don't just hold G+P and a direction. You want to reset after each move or combo. By reset, i mean that after you block a combo, let go of the G throw escape, and then G (throw escape) the next combo.

If you just stand there holding it forever and not letting go, you'll find as soon as you head into live play you are not doing any throw escapes. Be doing these dynamic resets, you'll find you almost never hold guard without also doing a throw escape.

#2.
Learn your max damage combos. Spam those launchers vs the lvl 5 cpu dojo, if it hits, do your combo, if its blocked, do an evade and throw escape. (while also still practicing your dynamic resets). Just be sure not to spam them in live play, but this way you have some muscle memory towards "hit-checking" your launchers.

With about 30 mins of practice you should be all set. If not, give it 30 mins more the following day.

 

Mission accepted ^^^

I've already used g.. +p against the cpu and it's saved me a couple times so far. I must be getting more familiar, because I was able to understand what you wrote.. and I love missions.

I had a question about evade throw escape:
Do you buffer in the throw escape when you're still evading, or just before you get attacked or thrown?
Does it have to be a successful evade?
When you buffer in a direction, do you do it at the same time you hit p, or just after?

 

ETE is buffered from Hit Stun. Tap Up, then enter a Throw. To to Free Training, set CPU to Guard and Counter Attack 5. Do a move that leaves from -6 - -9 and do the ETE during recovery. If they throw a mid you will evade, if they throw, you will Throw Escape.

Caveat You can do this from Failed Evade but make sure to input the TE while still in the Failed Evade animation. If done right you went get a throw whiff, if done wrong, you WILL get throw whiff.

Notation would be something like E~TE.

 

Okay I practiced #1 for a while, but it seemed to go to shit when I went against live opponents. Need more practice. Definite improvement though.

#2 will take a little longer.

 

Hiya Andre,
SMB was a bit optimistic. He said 30 minutes you'll be all set. 30 mins and we (him and I--twin brothers in real life) were all set be we also played VF5 vanilla for like 3 years each.

We practice the game together. I'd say we've both done this throw escape drill for 30 minutes about 4 times or so each. Perhaps we could get away with twice-3 times each, but it has the added advantage of if you watch that frame data in the bottom corner remember anything that gives you +13 or more you get free pk. Online u'll prlly need +15 to land a pk but u get the idea.

If i need lau help, i play lvl 5 lau and just block block block to see his frame data when i block him. I'm looking for +13-14 my free pk. +15 a free combo of 60 or so dmg. +17 and more a huge combo for about 80pts. Yet, even tho i'm using this to practice block punishes, i just practice throw escapes at the same time.

If the above isn't entirely clear, the important part is: Practice throw escape and evade throw escape as much as you need to. Do it for 30 mins at a time if ur comfy with that, if not do it 15 mins at a time, etc. Just like studying difficult homework, the brain on average learns best in no more than 30 minute intervals followed 15 minute breaks. That 15 break is a great time to practice a combo, or some other part of vf. Or even *gasp* go outside (i don't go outside, i practice moar!!!)

I would DEFINITELY alway practice your escapes vs the opponents you find particularly tricky, and even if you don't know what to do with it yet be sure to glance at frame data quite a bit on the moves of theirs that look like "big moves". By the time you need to start knowing that yutori stuff (and you will know when u need a small grasp of it) then you will already know many of the frames by exposure. Sorta like hearing a foreign language until u understand it.

lol isn't it great how much the community cares. Look at us blowing you up with info We're all rooting for you haha.

 

Thanks for all the advice. I've played this game for years, but never got into it this much. After practicing for a while, I'm wondering why you'd want to re-guard each string. Just as an experiment I did
... ...
and held it through a couple strings, then finally, a throw that matched my direction. I escaped it. Maybe I just don't understand.. It does seem like some strings are blocked better by a "fresh" block, but I'm not sure. It doesn't seem to be required for throw escape to work.

I put it on level 5 and I do a evade and listen for my character sound. If I hear it, I try to do
3 and follow through. If I don't hear it, I try to a throw guard. He doesn't seem to try to throw me during a failed evade though..

I read something about canceling an evade with a crouchdash or dash (but not a backdash, or backcrouchdash), with
So it sounds like you start with an failed evade, then instead of attacking, or throw guarding, you do some kind of forward dash and hit guard real quick to cancel it, for some reason. Just what are you cancelling? Is it a way to cancel the failed evade? Why, does it actually lessen disadvantage, or are you just cancelling the dash for some reason?

 

You are right, u absolutely do not have to 'refresh' ur throw escape to work.

The reason SMB suggested this is because in real play you are going to want to do Throw escape guards AFTER your moves are blocked. It is most common for a player You in this scenario) to initiate a block after their moves are blocked, i.e. the attacking player (your opponent in this scenario) will have advantage. In this situation you will never already be holding the throw escape, because you were doing your own attack.

If u 'refresh' ur throw escape it will more naturally transition you to real play where throw escapes are always input newly after a disadvantage is attained.

If you don't refresh TE in practice then practice==practicing holding g+p
If you do refresh TE after each tech(combo, ur evade, etc)==practicing inputting TE, which is our goal. To input a TE when we want one. Not to hold TE until we are thrown.

SMB is suggesting to practice TE as a simulation of real play.

 

Failed evade:
Say you do an evade and it is a failed evade. You opponent can now hit you with anything from a simple jab all they up to a gigantic launcher. He has that big of a window. Or he can throw you of course.

Failed evade with 33G cancel.
In this scenario the 33G cancels so many frames of the failed evade. It is literally a cancel of the failed evade into a crouch then guard (similar to crouch fuzzy in fact). It actually cancels
enough of the evade that your 33G will guard any upcoming mid or launcher that your opponent plans to use. Thus you turn your weakness (disadv so you to evade and failed) into your strength (adv from blocking opponent)!!

You may ask, "Then why would i not always do a 33G cancel?" In low level play it wouldn't be a bad idea tbh. However i'd avoid building bad habits that you later have to fix. The weakness of 33G cancel is that you can be low thrown during the 33. Also experienced opponents will catch your pattern very quick and simply throw you the second after you complete 33G. Lastly, (this is unverified by myself personally, and i just learned of it last night over mic chat with STL Tim so it is reliable)--lastly i have heard it said that after a 33G cancel your opponent can throw you through any attack you may, even low. You don't have to attack of course, you could simply duck the throw.

 

One last key component is cancels allow you to move at warp speed. Evade cancels a forward (not a back anymore i don't believe) then 33 or 11G cancels the evade, now you are free to forward dash again, cancel dash with evade, rinse repeat. Makes you very elusive and allows spacing domination. In VF terms this is called 'stepping' (srry if u already knew this).

On this video is an example of just how stepping can allow you to move. Look at jacky between 29-32 seconds. He does a lighting quick forward dash-->cancelled by down evade-->cancelled by 33G!!


Stepping isn't as prevalent in FS as vanilla. Because in FS you can't cancel back dash with evade and simple kick to back dashing opponent is but stagger. I think i got all the properties right, i'm a little hazy on whether u can cancel crouch back dash with evade or not, but i don't think so.

 

I was able to see the Evade used to cancel the forward crouch, it looked like he stood up quicker because of it. The rest I couldn't even see, but I get the idea. Thanks for all that info. I think I understand, cancelling sounds like it doesn't really cancel a move, just makes it finish quicker. Sounds like it could be called "hurrying" a move instead. I get now why you want to train to block new strings, by the way you explained it. I need to read this again tomorrow when I can really analyze it. Thanks again.

 

Social: you CAN cancel Back Dash with Evade. It's called Stair Stepping, but this is the backwards one. Two reps of this are BD xx Evade xx BD xx Evade. The "xx" means cancel.

You can also cancel Back Dashes with moves that have Back taps and double taps. For example, Akira can cancel a Back Dash into Body Check. The notation for Body Check is 443P+K. So on the Back Dash wait a couple frames and input 3P+K. Akira will Back Dash very slightly and then go into Body Check.

Both Fuzzy Guards lose to Low Throw. So the tick throw setup, P->Throw, gets beat by Fuzzy Guard but Fuzzy Guard loses to P->Low Throw.

 

He didn't cancel any forward crouch dash with an evade, he canceled a forward dash, into an evade, into a crouch dash, which he ended in high guard. Cancels don't make things finish quicker, a proper cancel will literally cancel the previous movement or action into something else, though the exact timing is specific to what was canceled into what. Cancels are mostly talked about when discussing movement, and it's a good idea to learn how the cancel system works in FS to get the most out of the precise and powerful movement options at your disposal.

Not just back motion moves; you can also clear the input buffer with G to cancel a back dash into almost any move at all.

 

Think I'm doing the cancel better now. You really got to be quick with it. I thought at first you were supposed to do a little dash, but you're not supposed to even see that, right?
So the reason to do ,
is because you recover faster than with ?
I don't notice it helping yet, the cpu gets me either way..

I'm also trying to cancel the dash into a lazy throw breaker, but I can't tell if it works yet.

 

Yeah that's the idea. By forward dashing you recover before a lot of the vulnerable frames at the end of a failed evade. I'd suggest to use 33G instead of 66G. By cancelling the failed evade with 33G you will have a split second of time that you are ducking. This can duck throws and highs and get you an easy advantage.

 

Man... I started this thread just looking to step up my garbage throw escape game, and while I wasn't looking all this happened. Which is fantastic, because I just made the decision a couple days ago to rededicate myself to mastering the precision of movement in all the fighters I play. ^^ Gotta love this community!

I do have another question though. Any advice on how to train yourself to throw break side throws better?

 

There's no rocket science in breaking side throws, they're literally the easiest throws to break. All you have to do is to watch from which side your opponent throws you and then use the corresponding direction + p+g to escape. Just takes a little concentration, nothing else.