Tekken player getting back to his roots,VF!

ROTFL

Masterpo, regardless the maths, I believe the rationale you used is incorrect and KoD explained why. The number of options you have in terms of joystick/buttons has not much to do with the actual number of options in terms of moves that actually happenin the game. That seems pretty clear...

 

the battle system is easier? i don't think so.

 

Ahem.... This is obviously an exercise in reading for some of the people that are responding to this post. (but I aint mad at you).

Formula 1 and 2 delineate the scenario where once you've chosen a move the rest of the moves are set. (That's what it means to be ordered).

There is ordered with replacement[/size] meaning once you've chosen a move you can use the same move as your next move, and there is ordered without replacement[/size], meaning once you've used it in the sequence you cannot use it again until the sequence is over. In addition to these there is unordered with replacement, and [/size]unordered without replacement[/size]. I made this clear in the four basic counting
formulas that I presented in the original post. (Please read them and understand before you make an uniformed response to what I wrote[/size])

Also I mentioned nothing about <span style='font-size: 17pt'>random moves[/size] </span>(where are you cats getting that from)?

This is a matter of being able to read. Obviously some of you skimmed the post, and don't have enough math background to be able to process what you're seeing
so you jumped to the easy conclusion that KoD (also jumped to). That's understandable. But please think before you jump to WAC (Wild Ass Conclusions)
OMGROFLMFAO /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shocked.gif

My general statement described a scenario where from some stance a character
has a possibility of 10 total moves to chose from. I did not say what stance or what character. I did not give a specific situation. My assumption is that people
who respond to the post could and would read it first. For the nay sayers out there do you not understand that from a starting stance you could have 10 possible moves and from those chose a combo sequence of length 4?[/size]


I then talked about a sequence of move from the initial stance. I picked 4 (just for fun) The 4 represents the length of the combo. Now the 10 and the 4
those <u>were</u> just random choices[/size] on my part. It could have been (7,3), (5,2), (8,5),etc.

<span style='font-family: Courier New'>So in plain english: My statement was if you have a character that is in some stance and from that stance he has 10 possible moves and he wants to string together a combo of 4 hits from that set of 10. How many possible combos of 4 could he put together? (This is known as a hypothetical situation)
</span> Hypothetical situations are for exposition purposes only![/size]

I then took the time to list the 4 formulas that could be applied (depending on which character, which stance, and which situation). Only one formula at a time
applies to a given situation and sequence. (please understand the formulas before you jump to a WAC)[/size]

For those of you that kind of skimmed the formulas:[/size]

The<u> first formula </u>is for situations where once you pick a move the other moves are setbut you can use a move more than one. (e.g. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif)

The <u>second formula</u> is for situations where once you select a move the next once is set and you cannot use the same move again until the sequence (or combo) is over.

The <u>third formula </u>describe the case where You cannot use a move more than oncebut order doesn't matter

The <u>fourth formula</u> describes a situation where order is not important and you can use a move more than once in the sequence (e.g. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif )

The point is, you apply the formula that is applicable to the situation and characters that are under consideration.

I also made it clear that this was a over simplification of the mathematics involved.

So apparently some of the people that responded to the post did so either with out
fully reading it or without fully understanding it or some combination of not reading and not understanding. That's okay I aint mad at none of yall.

Now if its still not clear (after you've read my initial post and tried out some of the math) Then we could start a the "mathematics of VF or Tekken" where we can fully work out the details and I would be happy to enumerate the combinations that I'm talking about.

Do you folks understand those for formulas? Do you think that I made them up?
Do you believe that they don't apply to VF or Tekken? Do you think they are being applied to VF or Tekken incorrectly?

Or do you think that combinatorics and fundamental counting principle don't apply
to games like Tekken or VF? I really hope this is not the case.

For those of you that said I was wrong. Please present the correct interpretation.
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

 

No Masterpo, I actually read your post fully to come to the conclusion that you are spouting bullshit.

The formulas you gave in counting are correct, as they are copied straight out of a text book. I don't think any of us (me included) were discounting their accuracy.

The only inaccurate part is how you are applying those counting methods to the problem in regards to comparing VF to Tekken. Specifically, enumerating the number of possible moves.

Let's look at what you said:

Now this method of counting is completely faulty. As what move you are trying to perform is not determined by the number of moves in a combo. Specifically, for any X number of inputs for any string based attack in VF, the number of actual moves in game is a significantly smaller set compared all four of the counting methods you have listed.

You have picked 4 for example here, and the calculations (assuming you didn't mess up typing in a calculator) yield the follow result for each of the 4 cases.

Now, let's take any character in VF5. When you discount rising attacks, aside from vanessa, WOW! None of them have 210 moves! So how is your calculation correct when none of the characters can possibly create 210 or more possible outcomes with all of their moves, let alone the subset of moves that involves 4 button presses. Let alone the summation of all possible number of button presses. This is seriously lol logic you have used.

In fact, this is another faulty logic. For any given situation, where as both players are free to act, with the input buffer clear (meaning that neither of the characters are in the middle of a string), neither of the players have access to the full move list.

If you are too uninformed about how VF is played, or the logic involved in understand the problem before you start formulating your calculations (which you are making it obvious that you don't), I can understand why you made this noob mistake.

If you still don't know what I'm talking here, let me spell it out for you. For any situation where you are free to do ETEG, G, Attack, OM, etc. the input buffer must be clear of any previous inputs. This means that at those moments, your character can not perform moves that are the second hit or further on after an initial move. This completely eliminates over half of the move list for any given character. Let alone what you stated about sequences of moves at any given time.

So again, this is more than a noob mistake, it shows once again that you have no idea what you are talking about or what those formulas mean, or even what you are actually trying to count.

This statement again shows that you have no clue in hell what you are talking about. Cause what you posted is NOT an oversimplification fo the mathematics involved, you posted the exact opposite. What is originally a very very very simple enumeration, you made it much more complex, and also into a completely inaccurate picture of what you should be enumerating.

I can state in three words exactly how you can enumerate the possible moves at any given situation with exact accuracy, or even one word for those who are not clueless. Until you can tell me what they are, you remain to be someone that simply spout out random shit you copied from a textbook in hopes that people are too lazy to read it or understand it to prove that you are completely clueless.

I'm sorry that some people on VFDC aren't stupid enough to buy into your BS, and that you have obviously wasted your money on your education. In fact, it's probably best if you continue to live in this fantasy land where you continue to believe you know what the hell is going on, cause I shudder to think about what it would like to find out that your existence is an utter failure.

Anyways, get back to me when you figured out those three words, remember to read the whole thing first. Just that I might still decide to not waste time explaining elementary math to someone who obviously don't possess the quality to understand as you have demonstrated yourself to be.

 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sorry that some people on VFDC aren't stupid enough to buy into your BS, and that you have obviously wasted your money on your education.</div></div>

If he paid money for that education, he should sue to get it back.

Once again, due to my allergies, I couldn't get past this paragraph:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is ordered with replacement meaning once you've chosen a move you can use the same move as your next move, and there is ordered without replacement, meaning once you've used it in the sequence you cannot use it again until the sequence is over. In addition to these there is unordered with replacement, and unordered without replacement. I made this clear in the four basic counting
formulas that I presented in the original post. (Please read them and understand before you make an uniformed response to what I wrote)</div></div>

I don't know what kind of deluded brain you need to believe that ordering with replacement when you are referring to sequential button presses that are FIXED (and for the most part arbitrarily decided how to be arranged by the designers), would apply to this game... or even that set of 4 equations in the way you used them. VF is not a free form fighter where you can make customizable combos. Add to that, sequence length is variable, and sometimes also includes different directions, sometimes even mid combo. It is like masterpo just learned these terms yesterday and said "HEY! These must apply everywhere in life that you have multiple objects!"

Frankly, I'm more impressed by the fact that Srider chose to write such a detailed and "kind" response to that.

 

Srider,

Now that you've put it that way., Its clear that I have no idea what I'm talking about and that it must be the case I'm spouting bullshit. So I retract the entire post on
the grounds that I copied all out of text book and don't understand any of it and that
I inappropriately applied it to VF and Tekken. I guess I was just trying to make friends in my fantasy world. So now you've totally pwned and exposed me while at the same time showing yourself to be the genious that you are. How could I have been so wrong.

I guess that what happens when I allow myself to spend so much time in a fantasy world. Thanks Srider, KoD, et. al for helping me to realize that I've wasted my education and really have no idea mathematically what I 'm talking about.

Now that you guy's have explained the mathematics of VF to me, I understand why
you guys are so good and why I need to go back to my fantasy world.

I am often amazed at how quickly people can identify B.S. when they hear it.

You guys as the B.S. barometers of VF should pat yourselves on the back
for pointing out my faulty math that I copied from a text book and Rosen /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

OMGROFLMMFAO

I suspect soon we'll get VF for the PS3 I'm looking forward to future lessons that you guys are going to teach me.

I feel fortunate., fortunate indeed /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

 

No, you clearly didn't learn this math from a textbook. A textbook would have told you when to apply it. Realize, people only kept pursuing it, and moved to a harsher tone, once you started to be adamant that you were right and that somehow there were "reading problems" that prevented us from understanding your "Dojo Chiquanshu logic".

 

Ya'll ain't know that zen mathematics son.

 

Welcome back to the world of Virtua Fighter, you have finally returned to fighting game nirvana! lol

I agree with your opinion on VF being more enjoyable than Tekken, but I don't feel that VF is in any way easier to play than Tekken...

For example, with the throw breaks in Tekken 5R, all you have to do is input either triangle or square according to the throw that your opponent uses in order to break it...If you're unsure, you can just mash both buttons and still break the throw...

In VF, not only do you have to input the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif while you're about to be thrown, you also have to input whatever directional button the opponent used for the throw as well...Which is easier said than done...

Still, both games are cool, but VF is where my heart is! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

 

I don't care who's saying BS, all this damn math is making me want to feed my skull a magnum slug /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif lol

I'll stick with being a writer.

Anyway, to Cxplorer, enjoy VF! Simple as that.

 

meh

 

Ahhh, you learn quick grasshoppa

 

loll man this is too funny!

 

what he says. i like both games, tekken got boring, so it is vf for me now.