Struggling out of staggers technical info...

Don't struggle when the icon is green. ONLY when it's red. Struggling when the joystick icon is green only makes it more difficult.

 

Eh?

Really?

 

Struggling during green doesn't count. Your inputs are not recognized. The post that akai linked is quite an eye-opener about how the game inputs work. Thanks again to KoD for all that work.

 

This explains a great deal.

I always stopped moving the stick when it went red.

 

You better go vice versa and stop shaking sticks when it's green.
Now what about buttons, do they count as recovery no matter what?

 

Most of the stuff in here is misinformation or questions that have already been answered (holding guard can break a stagger if you do it at the right time; you don't have to hold guard at the end, because you can evade after struggling; struggling at the wrong time will not technically make it more difficult, the input just wont be counted at all, whether its button or joystick; the joystick motion used does make a difference, but it's tiny in comparison to the difference that timing makes; etc ).

If you had some trouble finding the info in the link akai already posted ( http://virtuafighter.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/193087/fpart/1 ) here's a cut and paste of the relevant details. If you've still got actual questions, go post them in that thread.


Q: Do the inputs used for struggling matter?
A: Technically yes, but the most important thing is the window for struggling.

Tested using akira vs akira programmed to do sidekick ( blocked ) lowpunch ( I counter with a sidekick to cause stagger, then a followup attack ) followed by various struggling motions.

Against sidekick stagger ~ another sidekick, a single input of any kind (directional or button, even just pressing guard) is sufficient to guard the second sidekick. However, it must be within the struggle window, which in this case is 14 frames (tested by variable 1-frame increment delay after lowpunch, then guard). You can verify that the dojo ai wont guard sidekick stagger sidekick, even on fastest struggle, but it's really easy to do yourself; this must be because the cpu is struggling and / or guarding outside of the window.

As is fairly common knowledge, this window visually corresponds to when the joystick icon turns from green to red. Simply holding guard won't work, nor will doing even a full joystick circle while the icon is green. You are not penalized for struggling at the wrong time, it just doesn't count at all (tested by doing /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif ad nauseum during the wrong part of the window, then single input or not during the window). You aren't penalized for holding guard early either (although you don't get the benefit of that extra input). Some players feel like there is a penalty for struggling early, this is probably because its physically hard to struggle at fastest input speed for very long.

So the most important thing here is the size and timing of the struggle window; it's comparable to timing a reversal correctly. As for which inputs are used to struggle, it looks like button inputs (tapping /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif while holding guard) are worth the same as a single directional input, but scraping between nearby directions (e.g. from /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif) are not worth as much as a single clean directional input:

Against sidekick stagger ~ jab, the following inputs will guard the jab (all are in addition to pressing and holding guard at the beginning of the stagger window):

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif also works the same)
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (one frame or more gap between)
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif-/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif (i.e. tap and hold p, press k while holding p, then release both for at least a frame, then tap P again)

Notice that you don't get credit for more than one input in a given frame, and there is no "negative edge". In other words, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif(release /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif so just /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is held),(release both),/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif doesn't get you out of the sidekick ~ jab, because its only 2 distinct inputs. Common theme for success here seems to be 3 inputs.

However, 3-input motions like this are not enough:
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/ub.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/ub.gif

Some 4-input motions such as these work:
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/ub.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/ub.gif

but motions like these fail:
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif
/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/ub.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif

It's not just a matter of diagonal motions not being worth as much; not only are there equally 2 diagonal directions and two cardinal directions in all of the 4-input motions listed above, but 3-input diagonal motions like /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/ub.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif work (not that a human could actually do that motion). It looks like maybe diagonal directions before or after a cardinal only count as the direction they're moving "towards", i.e. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif counts as /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif, but /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/ub.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif only counts as /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif.

Still, the question of shaking vs smooth circling vs square circling probably comes down to how your hands work; if you can do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif in the same time as /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif, it's just as good; /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif is just as good as either one (and also doesnt involve ducking).


One last thing - it seems like you need an extra input in order to do struggle - evade, even if the first struggle motion is inside both the struggle window and the command buffer. Simply tapping /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif, even late in the window, won't get out of the struggle and evade a second sidekick, it has to be e.g./forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif. This seems to be also true if you're using an attack button; /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif late in the window wont come out, it needs to be /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif.