Specific scenarios

Actually,
From the list I think only the
reversal, DTE and
dodge, DTE is really useful. Especially dodge,DTE looks very good both defensively and offensively as you automatically throw after a dodge.

What is the use of attack,DTE?? I mean after you attack you will not get thrown. If it is a confirmed throw, what is the point of inputing your attack command??

Guard,DTE looks promissing too. But is it possible? First time I have heard of removing the throw animation.

 

Hey Chris,

which akira move are you talking about? I keep getting nailed by this dodge move of Akira and I can't seem to throw. Can you give me the motion for the move so I can try it.

 

Regarding Attack-DTE, here's an excerpt from an old Rich article on VF3 Option Select:

A-DTE / A-LTE: This is an interesting and sometimes very effective way of avoiding both throws and attacks. It works because if your opponent is in a position to have a guaranteed throw, your attack won't come out in any case, but you can still escape the opponents throw. And if your opponent instead gets cute and tries to strike attack, you have a chance to interrupt their move with a move of your own, provided that your move is fast enough. Of course, you have to choose which move to use wisely depending on the situation and character you're fighting.
Probably the safest moves to use single punches and elbows... if you have a fast PG, you have a chance to interrupt quite a few of many characters' favorite alternatives to throwing you. Faster P's may work against knees and heelkicks, and will foil KG-throw attempts. Elbows can work wonders on people attempting to CD-throw or do CD-attack on you; often you can get a stagger on them.
I'll just give an example to explain this, using one of the most common examples of lost iniative, a blocked rising attack: Akira just blocked Kage's high rising kick. Kage quickly enters f+P, P+G, d/f+P+G. Akira attempts a m-srm, but because Kage recovers before Akira can fully execute his srm, Akira recieves an elbow in the face and gets staggered. ha ha screw you akira.
This also gives protection from 3 of Akira's throws, and the elbow would have protected from a CD-throw attempt, and any possibly other slow attacks Akira might have tried. Of course, Akira might have simply chosen to b,f+P+G throw Kage. Oh well.Of course, this technique not going to work if you've just whiffed a kickflip or anything similar like that. You should only try it when you still have enough iniative to attack the opponent back.

With regards to G-DTE, I generally use them whenever I do certain attacks that have a long execution or are just heavily throw counterable. With the sort of results I've received against Adam Yuki when I played him during E3 weekend and generally against the Portland competition, it seems to be working well. For the most part, I just plug in a really fast DTE right at the end of whatever attack I did and let go of Punch immediately. I cannot say I'm perfect at doing these, but playing in LA during E3 weekend and the more recent Portland matches have given rise to my confidence that I'm at least decently proficient at it. And I almost never get a throw-whiff animation when I'm going for this particular OS. And to think I got in the habit of doing this after learning how to perform the pseudo Evade-Guard Throw Escape (which isn't the completely true definition of what's going on in this technique).

Probably the easiest example of myself using G-DTE is whenever I use Lion and go for u+P+K. I've just engrained it as a habit, U+P+K-->P+G-->x+P+G (immediately let go of P).

-Chanchai

 

I still do not understand what is the use of attack,DTE.

In fact I think the article is very confusing.
At first he said, "It works because if your opponent is in a position to have a guaranteed throw, your attack won't come out in any case, but you can still escape the opponents throw"
In the end he says, "You should only try it when you still have enough iniative to attack the opponent back."

Duh... so when exactly am I supposed to used this technique.

In either case I think it is pretty useless UNLESS your opponent is try something fancy like waiting to throw your throw escape animation.
If your move is throw counterable, opponent is HIGHLY likely to throw you. If he anticipates a throw escape he will use a damaging move like knee, elbow kick, etc and you are highly unlikely to interrupt. In fact you will just give him a MC.
If your move is not throw counterable, NO POINT in hitting the throw escape you YOU WILL NOT get thrown once you input the attack.

 

Akira's d/u,n+P+K+G. We tested this out one night and found that you could just throw-counter his dodge attack even thought the range *seemed* slightly far.

 

"In fact I think the article is very confusing.
At first he said, "It works because if your opponent is in a position to have a guaranteed throw, your attack won't come out in any case"

Okay say your move with 8 frames recovery was just blocked so you do punch,DTE if your opponent has perfect timing he will throw you before you recover and the punch animation won't start (that's what he means) BUT you still have the DTE to fall back on.

If however you opponents timing was slightly off your punch will interrupt the throw where as if you did GTE he would throw you out of your block

Also the punch will interrupt any really slow attack, so if you were playing Kage you would interrupt any move of 17 frames or slower (very few moves but still this assumes he attacked immediately after he blocked)


It's good if you KNOW a throw is coming, so if you are playing a Wolf who does GS at every opportunity and he's just blocked your 8frame counterable move ADTE is really usefull cause it takes a while to do the GS motion so he may very well slightly miss time it.

hope that helps /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

 

"Also the punch will interrupt any really slow attack, so if you were playing Kage you would interrupt any move of 17 frames or slower (very few moves but still this assumes he attacked immediately after he blocked)"

17 frames? Damaging floaters like knees will MC you anyway. Its useless.

 

ah, i think i'm getting it, the whole option select. so with A-DTE,
you enter [attack]~[DTE] immediately ... as you recover? or immediately upon recovery?
in either case, the opponent has initiative, and if they throw the attack will not even come out, but when the throw connects your throw escapes will register and you will escape ... but if the throw is late the attack will come out.
now about G-DTE: in this case, if you did NOT release P, then you yourself would attempt a throw? but by releasing P you instead are guarding. Well i assume this is right from the description of D-DTE : if they attempt to throw you out of the dodge you will escape, if not you yourself will throw them. right?
though noone can tell me if you can escape throws if you are *holding* the correct escape *while* the throw is attempted?

 

"17 frames? Damaging floaters like knees will MC you anyway. Its useless"

If you use it PROPERLY it's far from useless and I did mention that very few moves are that slow indicating that interrupting OBVIOUSLY isn't it's primary function.

If you KNOW a throw is coming it's a good technique
for example you could do flipkick DTE, if you are confident that a throw is coming so if your opponents timing was slightly off he would eat the flipkick and if it was perfect you could still escape throws.

don't assume just because YOU can't make use of it that it's useless

 

I hope he understood what u were on abt~

 

"17 frames? Damaging floaters like knees will MC you anyway. Its useless."

Umm what sort of chump throws out a highly counterable knee every time he blocks an attack which doesn't guarantee one?,

If he does a knee he probably expected a ADTE in which case he deserves an MC knee float, GDTE is the option you would be using most of the time, depending on the opponent of course.

 

okay, I havent read most of the thread, but I assume your talking about what to do after PPP. If you are playing with pai, neary everyone is used to blocking low after PPP to block the sweep. So if they duck you can low throw them, hop right over them.

If they get used to ducking you can also, ppp, b+k them, or use just pp (watch them duck), then sidekick. Condition your opponent that you will follow PPP with the canned sweep or cartwheel.

CrewNYC

 

Alan you can also use the A-DTE or A-TE, as an offensive weapon. For example say you are using Jacky. You want to elbow stagger the guy. You throw out the elbow, but lets say you are playing Jeffery and he is very good at fuzzy guarding, so he blocks your elblow, if Jeffery is fast enough he may choose to grab you, so I enter, f+pg to escape jeffery's backbreaker.

If my timing is good, I may get the elbow stagger, if not and it is blocked I have escaped the back breaker.

This is something that you dont need to use, but works depending on how your opponent is playing.

CrewNYC

 

Duh... so when exactly am I supposed to used this technique.

In either case I think it is pretty useless UNLESS your opponent is try something fancy like waiting to throw your throw escape animation.

Well, that's the concept. You are actually understaing the idea correct, it seems.

In later days of VF3, G-TE became popular and prevalent. At the same time, several anti-G-TE techniques were developed, and they are what you call "something fancy" like K-cancelling or crouch-dash (waiting G-TE to expire).

A-TE will defeat those "something fancy". Elbow will hit the K-cancelling and stagger crouch-dash attempt. And TE will of course escape one of the throws.

If your move is not throw counterable, NO POINT in hitting the throw escape you YOU WILL NOT get thrown once you input the attack.

Again you are right on this. All these G-TE, A-TE stuff is used as an insurance, something to minimize the potential damage, WHEN the opponent's throw is guaranteed.

 

Alan you can also use the A-DTE or A-TE, as an offensive weapon. For example say you are using Jacky. You want to elbow stagger the guy. You throw out the elbow, but lets say you are playing Jeffery and he is very good at fuzzy guarding, so he blocks your elblow, if Jeffery is fast enough he may choose to grab you, so I enter, f+pg to escape jeffery's backbreaker.

Wait Andy...Jacky's elbow is NOT throw-counterable, is it? So no matter how fast Jeffry's reaction is (i.e. Adam), an immediate elbow after the blocked elbow will beat Jeffry's throw attempt, or may stagger him depending on what Jeffry does.

If you want to do anything X-TE stuff in this situation, some available options are E-TE-G or E-A-TE (this can be E-TE-A, makes no difference). The TE part works as an insurance because the first E makes you throw-vulnerable.

 

You've definitely got the concept down now you'll just nead to practice it to make sure you are doing it correctly /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

"ah, i think i'm getting it, the whole option select. so with A-DTE,
you enter [attack]~[DTE] immediately ... as you recover? or immediately upon recovery?"

You buffer in the ADTE (enter it slightly before you recover) you should have finished the DTE part of the ADTE by the time you have recovered.

"now about G-DTE: in this case, if you did NOT release P, then you yourself would attempt a throw? but by releasing P you instead are guarding."

Correct, you must release punch (I think you have about 4 or 5 frames at most to release p) for the GTE to work,

EGTE or ETE

The first one is just like GTE just do an evade and immediately do the GTE motion and once the escape finishes you will recover in a guard.

I assume since you didn't mention EGTE you've been using ETE?..that's somewhat useful but EGTE is better because you can still throw if you see that the opponent is in recovery but you aren't commited to it (so If you think you don't have time to throw you can use another option)

 

"If you KNOW a throw is coming it's a good technique
for example you could do flipkick DTE, if you are confident that a throw is coming so if your opponents timing was slightly off he would eat the flipkick and if it was perfect you could still escape throws."

First of all, no nobody will know for SURE what his/her opponent is going to do, and don't forget that if ADTE often enough, your opponent is just going to knee you anyway because he knows you will always ADTE after your throw counterable move is blocked.
Besides, WHO will screw up a throw after blocking a throw counterable move(especially rising kicks in VF3)?
And don't even bother to talk about non-throw counterable moves because its obvious that your opponent is taking a big risk if he decides to throw you even though the move he has just blocked isn't throw-counterable, most attacks will stop him anyway, no ADTE is required.

 

Hmm I have to try another elbow, but after playing Adam's Jeffery he would make it seem like its throw counterable. He seems to be able to throw all characters after a blocked elbow. Then again I dont really throw out two elbows back to back too often, so ill try this sometime.

CrewNYC

 

Btw, wouldn't it make more sense to use GDTE if you "knew" your opponent was going to throw you? You would be able guard his attacks(in case) and if he misses(although unlikely), you will still throw him. Yes, there's a remote possibility that he might escape my throw(GDTE originally) but I'd rather that happen than expose myself to silly MCs.

 

"and don't forget that if ADTE often enough, your opponent is just going to knee you anyway"

IF YOU DO ANYTHING OFTEN ENOUGH YOU WILL GET KILLED...and I already said this isn't a technique to be using every time.

"Besides, WHO will screw up a throw after blocking a throw counterable move(especially rising kicks in VF3)? "

Umm when did I say anything about rising kicks in VF3?.

Smart players will slightly delay their throw to grab you just after the GDTE has expired if you use it too much (Shota just explained more on this) so people may INTENTIONALLY delay their throw slightly.

Delayed throws sound like they'd work very well on you since you are soooo scared of Knee MC combo's and would never dare to attack after a throw counterable move was blocked /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

Many people are known to screw up throw timing as well after blocking barely counterable moves, check the Chibita vs Muscle Sarah clip,MS blocks Lion's FC,f+p then tries to throw but is instead interrupted.

Oh btw Chibita attacks immediately even though he's well aware of the fact that FC f+p is throw counterable,why does he feel confident enough to attack? because he KNOWS a throw is coming so he does ADTE and he guesses correctly had MS had perfect timing he would have had a VERY good chance of escaping the throw.

Now then do you think Chibita is foolish for using ADTE? you obviously dissapprove of it.

Oh and it is possible that MS was trying to delay the throw to avoid Chibita's GTE but regardless of whether he was or not he was still nailed by ADTE which goes to prove that it IS usefull,

"And don't even bother to talk about non-throw counterable moves because its obvious that your opponent is taking a big risk if he decides to throw you even though the move he has just blocked isn't throw-counterable"

umm when exactly did I suggest using a ADTE against non counterable moves? /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif