GG only has tension meter n health. Thats not an issue for most people . What makes GG hard is the range of attacks ( your combos change depending on how close or far you are) super cancels which are just frames, super jumps( U have to rotate the stick really fast 4 execution, its necessary to get better air combos), complex movelist, character knowledge because each character plays completely different, But because of all these techs the game is extremely rewarding. GGXXAC is def not a casual game. GGXrd looks easier though. could be wrong. GG is def the hardest 2d FG. Smash doesnt compare with its basic gameplay. @Femto

Health
Burst
Guard Meter
Super/Tension
Character Specific trait above Tension Meter



Again it's the way the way VF handles offense and defense that makes it fun to play without needing more meter for everything. Every game has it's tech you need to utilize to get to the higher level play, whether it's SF, VF, Tekken, Smash etc.

'This is jazz gaming – improvised, but with a structure of its own, and endlessly inventive.'

-I quite like this.
​

'This is not a casual or friendly game.'

-I beg to differ. Big time.
​

'You don’t learn to play Virtua Fighter so much as learn to speak it.'

-Then I am the VF equivalent of gibberish, lol.　

"My no know. Mesa day starten pitty okeyday witda brisky morning munchen. Den boom! Getten berry scared and grabbed dat Jedi, and pow! Mesa here. Huh. Mesa getten berry, berry scared."​

The characters in this game are bland because it's like SEGA wants you to imprint yourself onto the character. When you first pick someone to use and practice, when you start to learn what to do so much is opened up to you. I spent hundreds of hours on VF4 Vanilla and VF4 Evo learning how to play the game, because it felt like when i played I was one with the character I was using, so when I got better it was rewarding as hell because of the effort spent just trying to beat the CPU. Just trying to get moves out the way there's supposed to, and learning what it means to play conservatively(w/e that term is called for this game) and not.

Newbs call this game difficult, because it's all about instant gratification for them. Tekken has the interesting yet fucked narrative, Soul Calibur (imo, a fun game, now heavily flawed) lets you fight with weapons, Dead or Alive has unrealistic and disproportionate cleavage, and Marvel vs. Capcom is a combofest with a bunch of pretty colors and is almost incomprehensible to follow. Virtua Fighter is akin to high speed chess, if you are not thinking ahead of your opponent by several moves, especially at a high enough level there is no way you will win. So that combined with the learning curve forces people away, and some people just can't handle having a video game of all things test their character and beat them.

Nothing Shun gains by getting wasted is especially overpowering after around 10 DP. He just incrementally gets more power, a few combos and some better frames, that's all. A Shun with 20+ DP sure is dangerous, but hardly the best character, since his options haven't changed that much. A part of this is because in FS all character can do ludicrous damage, not only Shun with his 12+ DP drink wasting (!) launcher combos

I meant that in some games characters have their super meter from the start or are built by blocking or getting hit — I see nothing especially original, skillful or rewarding there. With Shun, getting those drinks in requires specific skills regarding drinking, which is in many cases risky and expected.

I'd take a guard break, if you're handing out new moves.

Shun's mechanics do allow him to snowball an advantage, but many characters are adept at keeping him on few or no drinks. The fact that he's great at 10 doesn't mean he can always get there, especially against opponents savvy at using sober combos. Also, three of the 10+ DP moves you mentioned cost drinks to use, so it's also not like he can use them and still retain the same level of advantage (unless he's up to absurd drink levels).

I've never seen Shun's mechanics as making him the "best character in the game" (as was earlier asserted) past a certain DP threshold, but I do overall think the mechanic balances out well with his lack of earlier options and tools.

I agree with most of what the article said, except for barrier to entry, for what it's worth. VF4 was the first fighting game I learned seriously, and the tutorial mode in that game was so relentlessly thorough that I felt fully equipped with the knowledge to play at a high level very early on. Knowledge and application aren't the same thing, however. Learning to apply takes time.

As long as shun can gets a knockdown, he can safely drink. Plus he always has access to 4p+k. He can load up 4-6 dp post winning rounds as well.

Shun doesn't need a guard break if he has 214k.

Shun's opponent needs to prevent him from drinking, and take dp's whenever possible. His meter is too good. At 20 dp, I'd put him over Akira on a tier list.

Each player has 210 health. 3 methods of dealing 70+ damage kills ends a round. Shun has no way to setup high damage at 0 dp. (cept 4 throw on the wall i guess?) Sober Shun doesn't win. He is a risky meter dependent character, and proper drink management is what makes him strong.

On average what's the most dp's a shun can stack in the 1st round?

I'm happy if I'm in the 6-8 range by then (including post-round drinks), but sometimes ppl can really shut off your drink game and you have to rely on post round, where you get between 2-4 depending on KO circumstances.

Most balanced fighting game I have played was probably international karate+, since it had exactly one type of character. Now that I think of it, same goes for barbarian:UW.

Players of most 2D games aren't used to the idea of having more than 10% of the roster be "tournament viable", let alone the state of balance as it exists in VF. They're used to being told to "play top tiers" early on so they don't waste time on throwaway characters.

When they come to VF and people are like "everyone is viable*, play who you like", they probably think they're being trolled.

*close enough, we're talking magnitudes of difference to 2D balance issues.

... and Shun's (no DP) GB guarantees nothing. Also, Shun doesn't have that almost universal P -> elbow strategy even with 6+ DP. Dick punch always beats the 3P and 6P since they're 15f mids. Shun needs 23+ DP to launch with 3P, which is rare unless your name is Fuudo or Itazan.

I also think people often overestimate the power of 236P, as it's still -8, a _special_ mid and hosts no killer combos at 6-7 DP (without the second P part at 8 DP). Sure 16f exe is nice, but still.

Shun's 10+ DP moves are great, but in many matches they can be tried only a couple of times and Shun may lose other advantages (ie 10 DP HCB throw or even his 8 DP stuff) which hurts his game a lot. It's a gamble, not a win-win.

Shun with low DP has a 15f high launcher for OK punishment, but otherwise he's quite an eunuch for various reasons (2P beats P -> elbow guess game). I finished the punishment chart for Shun last week (beta version) and figured out that in many cases, Shun's [punishment] damage is extremely dependent on passing a certain DP threshold, with even 100% more damage after a couple of extra drinks. In addition to that, he gets far more juggle carry and setups too with a few more drinks (namely PP4PP with 4+ DP).

But yes, many characters can destroy Shun's drink game even with a couple if right moves and a DP sneezing combo. I think the system is reasonably balanced. But even a high DP Shun is not unbeatable or without faults.

Personally, I'm quite pleased with Shun in present form. It's a shame he gets a common treatment as a gimmick character, as the big points are those intricate mechanics and rather basic skills and yomi it takes to master the whole package (figuring out the best options in different situations). N00bs can of course do 46P+K to P+K K P all the day they want for insane damage, but others can duck and punish freely when they want.

The bad point with a slow (21f) 4P+K is that it and ALL the rest standing normal stance attacks are evadable to Shun's front, excluding only 1KK which only knocks down for minimal damage. I especially exclude 9P+K (to OUS), cause it's so risky. Getting a grip on when and how Shun players like to switch their normal (closed/open) stance (there are many ways) makes Shun to rely a bit too often on 1KK.

Actually, a paltry P or 2P can get Shun 7 DP (6P+K to OUS & P+K+G) with tight timing or 3K for easy to drink 6 DP. Simply winning a single round with one random DP and a 12f move finish can transform Shun into a 8+ DP pest with many of his good tools and damage.

And when everything goes wrong... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEAO657okPw&feature=player_detailpage#t=303

Which is a linear low and needs 13+ DP for respectable combo damage. Afterwards, Shun also has only 8/5 DP after a hit (from 13/10 DP). It's surely a nasty launcher but it also effectively resets Shun's drinking game.

It mostly depends on the mind games (matchup) and the threat Shun poses (which moves he already has unlocked). If opponent eats one P+G or 66P+G and doesn't fall for long range poking game (ideal for 6P+K+G P) or Shun's high/low crushes, Shun may still well get 8-10 DP even in a bad round (excluding any hits from sobering moves of course). Just a random P+G for 2 DP, one DP after 1KK and 5-7 DP from winning a round is pretty typical for total of 8-10 DP.

Interestingly before FS, Shun's P+G was a stupidly obvious go-to throw break but now it only can grant one extra DP as a round finish (total 3 DP), while 66P+G can get up to 7 DP with 3P_4. With 10+ DP it gets even more painful...

Losing a round obviously makes Shun lose the post-round stuff and opponent may even end the round with post round sobering combo after a standing fall. Getting that first round win is pretty important.

Question about balance. When you bring up balance, what is counter-arguement to "SFIV is balanced, as well, is there another reason I should play this?" Remember they have Evo results to back this claim as well.

Also, when someone asks about characters, do you just leave it at "Play who you like." or do you go into more detail?

@Zekiel nope. Still 4, not counting character specific traits like Johnny, H.O. Sol, A.B.A.

I 4got bout burst so thats 3. all the others use tension. and burst takes along time to recover anyway. Oh well to each his own.

Guilty Gear will forever be "hardcore" because the game is mired in system glut, meaning there are so many independent yet inter-working rule sets that the results are not immediately decipherable and -more importantly- immediately, empirically predictable to anyone outside of those who have already invested so much time and effort to get firsthand experience.

I mean hell, look how hard it is to know exactly how much damage someone will do with their hits at any given moment. We have the guard meter, which by blocking increases the damage received by essentially how much damage is blocked even though the damage increase to damage blocked is not directly proportionate. This interacts with the hidden "guts" stat, one that lowers damage by a character specific percentile. On top of this comes the proration of the initial attack that starts the combo (generally the quickest, safest starters have the greatest damage reduction via proration). I believe I can safely stop there, as it should be readily apparent that this is waaay more complicated than the typical VF normal hit/counter/sometimes sideturned determining damage modifiers. This is only scratching the surface of system/ruleset complexity of Guilty Gear.

Whether or not this kind of complexity is truly "good" game design is up for grabs, but the important part is that this makes a game by default less accessible, thus more "hardcore".

tl;dr quit while you're ahead, zekiel

"VF is so hard" notion comes simply from its relative unflashiness, which is the major thing that gets people going in games in general. FS sure is flashier than previous installments, but it also emphasizes correct guesses over technical clutter and has a surprisingly logical system which, for many people, is not that they expect from a FG. A game devoid of "shoryuken kills everything" logic is hard, because people actually have to think, not spam.

I'm tired of reading people telling a game 'hard' when it has so few just frame combos when compared to, say, SF series. Many people have really convoluted meaning for 'hard' and it serves itself perfectly, keeping many good FGs as cult favorites only.

@Optimus_Cack Didnt i say GG is not a casual game? You just went into more detail of how GG is hardcore. I just stated the hard execution tech.