Sarah's Move List

Re: Back Turned oddities

First, a quick correction to my last post. The correct input for the Turnaround Hide Side Kick when Sarah's back is turned is [backturned]b+P+K, not [backturned]f+P+K.

Myke, the buffered back dash you mentioned for Kage also works for Sarah, when you do moves like bb+P. I assume this is already known to Sarah vets, but was news to me.

A thought occurred to me that might explain a good deal of the back turned anomalies and actually make them trivial variations. The answer might be that they are not anomalies at all, but a matter of "misdefinition" of directional inputs. As defined currently, "b" and "f" are based on the direction your character is facing. If you change the definition to be based on the direction your character's opponent is relative to him/her, then many of these anomalies immediately disappear. For instance, the notation for Sarah's Lightning Knee Smash is b+P+G. As I mentioned, when backturned, it becomes f+P+G. But if you define "f" as being the direction towards her opponent (instead of the direction she is facing), the command for her backturned Lightning Knee Smash is the same as for when she is facing her opponent: b+P+G. This works for all of her command throws. It also takes care of such moves as her Turnaround (from backturned) Knee Kick, Dash Knee, Rising Elbow, Snap Side Chop, Middle Kick, Step Round Kick, Low Spin Kick (and the moves such as Turnaround Double Joint Butt that combo out of them), all of which she can do. The only problem with this concept that immediately comes to mind is defining front and back when her opponent is at her side, but this can probably be handled with a little thought.

Again, this doesn't explain everything, just the majority of apparent joystick direction reversals. It doesn't explain, for instance, why I can get two different (directionally) backturned Tornado Kicks, one ub and one uf, but no backturned Spin Heel Sword.

Some other seeming oddities rest with those moves that normally have neutral joystick commands, relying solely on button presses. I already mentioned the Turnaround Hide Side Kick example. Also, when backturned, P+G does not reliably give me a Turnaround Front Suplex; sometimes it comes out as a punch. But if I tap the joystick towards the opponent while inputting P+G, I always seem to get the Turnaround Front Suplex command. On the other hand, I can not yet find any way to have a backturned Spin Kick or Crush Tornado (both with normal K+G inputs ) come out.

Some moves seem to confuse the game. When backturned, a ub+K (i.e., up and away from the direction she is facing) sometimes comes out as a Somersault Kick with no turnaround (and hence no damage, I guess, unless maybe the opponent jumps into it?), sometimes a turnaround Full Spin Heel Kick attack, sometimes a turnaround hop kick attack, and sometimes a backwards moving hopkick (with no turnaround) that can't harm her opponent behind her. I can't find any obvious criteria governing which occurs; maybe vets such as Yupa know? If I input f+K+G, I sometimes get a Dragon Kick attack (which is one of her standard turnaround attacks), and sometimes a Turnaround Spin Edge Kick. If I input u+K+G, I usually get a Turnaround Round Kick attack, but sometimes she does a useless Round Kick without turning around. On the other hand, d+K+G seems to always give a Turnaround Leg Slicer.

Another note: I mentioned that inputting P+K while she is backturned gives a special variation of her Turn Knuckle that doesn't combo further into canned moves. This also works, much to my surprise, if she is crouching with her back turned. There must be some use for this...

Yupa, I am glad you will be adding the Moonsault move when you update Sarah's VP move list. Do you have a way of determining its execution frames and recovery stats? BTW, while updating, you might want to change the entry on her list for PPu+PK; it's incorrectly listed/titled as ending in a "straight-jump kick"; it should be a "kickflip" (and it is shown as such in this site's move list). This also changes its damage from 24 to 28, and its frame rate statistics as well. Also, from fooling around with Sarah, I don't think the parentheses in her u|uf+(KP) move are needed. Just pressing P seems to work...Not of major importance of course.

Adio: Yes, they all do the same damage, and as far as I can tell, have the same properties, although the animation for some is obviously different (when a turnaround is made), and this might affect their execution frame rates. I don't know.

Myke: In the notes column for the Guard Crush Sword, you mention it' s unblockable. Doesn't this make it a "high force" attack rather than a "high" attack? What it does is stagger a standing defender without damaging him/her, and this might be a better note comment than calling it unblockable. Just a thought.

Another thought: The term "hit throw" is a bit confusing to me. In a separate thread, Yupa mentioned that Sarah's Neck Cut Slash, [FS] K+G(hit)P+G, works against a blocking defender (actually, the defender also has to be standing), even though the K+G technically hasn't really "hit," since no damage is done by it versus a blocking opponent. On the other hand, her Hand Hold Neck Cut, [FS]d+K(hit)P+G, does not work against a blocking defender; the d+K literally has to hit for damage. Seems to me the word "hit" in the command means two different things in these two moves. I kind of think some new terminology might be needed to distinguish the two cases; or maybe a note will suffice. I am not sure how this works with other characters' hit throws. Again, I am just sharing a thought. I realize there is a need to balance precision with clarity. Another observation about these two hit throws: As I mentioned, the Neck Cut Slash only seems to work against a standing opponent -- it's a "high" hit throw; but the Hand Hold Neck Cut can throw a croucher who isn't blocking -- it is thus both a "high" hit throw and a "low" hit throw. Again, I wonder if this shouldn't be indicated in some way on the move list -- either by notation or as a note.

Well, this has been a lengthy and some might feel cumbersomely detailed post, but I am taking this game seriously (as games go). I apologize for boring anyone, and I am glad if there is any interest in anything I've said.

I've started using Lion, and noticed some errors on his move list as well. I'll report them tomorrow, hopefully.

Good night...

 

Re: Back Turned oddities

Thanks, this is good stuff! I've already got the backturned moonsault in my Sarah mini-FAQ /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

 

Re: Back Turned oddities

Yupa: Ignore my question about the recovery rates for the backturned Moonsault. I obviously didn't know what I was talking about. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif As for its execution frames, I suppose the assumption will be 43, same as a normal Moonsault. With such a large number, any error is probably insignificant anyway.

Myke: Yes, I see what you are saying about using G to get a character to perform "pseudo" turnaround attacks. Thanks for re-sharing such a useful technique. As for my remarks that prompted your question, I was musing about why things like the two backturned Tornado Kicks (away and towards the enemy) were programmed in. I was being curious out loud (or in print). Maybe SEGA did it just to puzzle people like me. Or maybe they put strange things in like that hoping a creative player will find some unusual way to use them...

That still leaves two unique backturned moves for Sarah that I intend to continue experimenting with: the ub+P Moonsault, and the P+K. The P+K seems to be the only high turnaround attack Sarah can make from a crouching position. And she "immediately" (at least to my eye) enters a standing position. So perhaps it can be used against an enemy trying to low backthrow her?

And yes Myke, I will put my Lion move list stuff in another thread. But first, some more Version C Sarah move list corrections/concerns:

The damage for her Leg Hook Throw (from Flamingo Stance) is listed as 40; it should be 45 (I tested it). The number of execution frames for her low backthrow is missing; I believe it should be 8. At least that's what Virtua Project's list says...

Three of her moves, the Spin Kick, Tornado Kick, and the Running Knee, each have a separate entry for (near) and (far) variants, with a comment that "Damage depends on distance," implying a range of damage; but then only a single damage number of 30 appears for both the near and far entries, rather than a damage range. To compound this, it's not mentioned whether 30 is the maximum, the minimum, or the average damage. Of course, as it turns out, it is the maximum. But this makes things even more wrong, since if for all three moves the damage is distance dependent, then obviously the 30 rating cannot apply to both the near and far versions, and is thus completely wrong in at least one entry for each pair. I tested the moves and found the damage for each varies from a minimum of 20, to a maximum of 30, but I have no idea what is the border between "near" and "far," so I can't give the subranges for each specific entry.

The list gives the reverse level for her Low Spin Kick as "SW." Based on game experience reinforced by going against Akira/Aoi in training mode, I believe this is wrong. I think the correct reverse level is "LK." Virtua Project agrees with me (for now /versus/images/icons/smile.gif).

While checking this on the VP Sarah move list, I noticed that they show the Low Spin Kick from Flamingo Stance as not being subject to a reverse; but the move list here gives the reverse level as "SW." I have never had it reversed, so I have no idea who is right. I checked the VP list after I stopped playing today, so I didn't have a chance to test the move. I will attempt to test it tomorrow, but I don't know how successful I'll be; I have to rely on the CPU to reverse me. If it doesn't, that proves nothing... Perhaps one of you already knows which is in error? Both lists have their share; VP is right about the regular Low Spin Kick, but the VFDC list is correct about the Rising Knee Double being "KN" level (VP gives no reverse level). So past accuracy gives me no clue. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif Oh, and Yupa, the damage rating for her Front Suplex P+G throw should be 45, not the 50 given by VP. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

BTW, Myke, I know what the "Grd" column on the move lists is for, but I am not sure how it applies to throws, since they can't be blocked. Is it for missed throws? Or for escaped throws?

 

Re: Back Turned oddities

I'll be updating VP's Sarah movelist ASAP... I actually started with comparing the 2 Akira lists and want to finish that first... I can only access the net from work right now, so I apologize for the slow updates at this point...

 

Re: Back Turned oddities

"I would guess that the minimum damage value applies to the (far) variant."
You would guess wrong. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif The Tornado Kick and Spin Kick cause more damage from further away. As for the Running Knee, I am not sure. Because of the nature of the move and its relative rapidity, I am not certain if I was getting the lower numbers nearer or not. A knee is not as obvious as an extended leg. It took me a few tries to even register the low end with the knee -- I had to hit Jacky in a corner spot. So it probably also hits more from a distance, but I am not 100% certain. Maybe someone with better visual acuity with fast moving video objects can help out?

An easier solution to the damage range than the one you propose might simply be to drop the separate near and far entries, with a single combined entry for each move. Show the damage as a range, and use some kind of note or notational method to indicate the individual execution frame, etc., for near and far, similar to the way you show the execution frames individually for each kick of her Double Rise Kick attack.

 

Re: Back Turned oddities

Myke, are you changing the reverse level for the Flamingo Stance Low Spin Kick based on extrapolation, or on knowledge? Remember, I mentioned I had only tested the normal version, and as I said, VP indicates that the FS version can't be reversed.

 

Re: Back Turned oddities

Isn't there a slo-mo option in free training? That might help in figuring out the range differences.

Myke needs integers in his columns for the sort algorythm to work... will need to find another way. I'll add the minimum~maximum damage range where appropriate at VP if they're available.

 

Re: Back Turned oddities

That probably sounds like the best bet, Myke. Something like "Damage increases with range, up to XX". Most of the ranges are very small, though. If I remember correctly, all of Pai's variant damage moves range from 20-25, Lau's and Jacky's to 30 (with Jacky's low crescent maxing at 35). I haven't checked Sarah's.

Also, kudos to Deniz. Glad to have you aboard and really digging into the game. We really need some more posters like yourself. I can honestly say that your posts have been a breath of fresh air for me, as I've been getting increasingly hostile with the number of 'crap' posts popping up in what once was a very....well somewhat....serious gaming forum. New folks like you coming on board is what keeps this place reputable /versus/images/icons/smile.gif (And I'll try to keep my temper in check to not damage that image)

With that note, I'll probably be compiling an addendum that I'll probably send off to Robyrt for inclusion in his Sarah FAQ on some of the more "offbeat" combos in the game. Some work was started on breaking down the wolf/jeffry problem with u/b+K+G, trying to find the best damage options against these two.

 

Re: Back Turned oddities

Some more errata: Despite what the command lists indicate, Sarah's two hop punches (Elbow and Step Straight) CAN be reversed. The level is MP.

With regards to my earlier uncertainty concerning the variable damage associated with her Running Knee: Looking at it in slow motion, it is easy to see that its damage is greater the CLOSER she is to her opponent, the opposite of what happens with her Spin Kick and Tornado Kick.

BTW, the more I use her P+K from a backturned position, the more I am convinced it deserves a separate entry as a turn towards attack, and I am inserting it as such on my own printed out copy. The fact that it can be done from a crouch as well as standing -- in VP notation the command would be preceded by a bracketed asterisk -- has turned out to be very useful. This comment is just meant as further information for those interested in Sarah, not as an argument over a move list. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

 

Re: Back Turned oddities

Some more errata: Despite what the command lists indicate, Sarah's two hop punches (Elbow and Step Straight) CAN be reversed. The level is MP.

Damn, this sux. Are the hop kicks reversable at all? Have you tested them? I'm sure you know that u+K+G and f+K+G *are* reversed mid-level. You get the sidekick reversal animation.

I've done some testing with Akira to double chk reverse levels in virtuaproject's movelist, and found that VFDC is correct where the 2 disagree. (Kudos to Myke again!) I've not been able to reverse Akira's hopping punches or kicks. I was hoping this would be universal for all the hold button type hop attacks so that we wouldn't need to test them all... yuck.

Interesting comments about the P+K... I'll try to work that into my game... =)

 

Re: Back Turned oddities

Are the hop kicks reversable at all? Have you tested them?
Yupa[sawa], I sure did test them, and despite many attempts, I wasn't able to reverse them; I don't think they can be reversed. But I will keep trying, and if I am ever successful, you can be sure I'll reverse myself and report it pronto. Reversals for certain moves are affected by special circumstances (e.g., stance) or require perfect timing. I have found some moves are harder to reverse than others, even when similar looking. For instance, I find Sarah's ub+K much, much easier to reverse than her [Flamingo Stance]u+K. As I mentioned in the Lion thread, he has two similar ub hop kicks, one of which is easily reversed, the other which I don't believe can be reversed. So for reverse purposes, any similarity between Sarah's hop kicks and her u|f+K+G moves are irrelevant, IMHO.

 

Re: Back Turned oddities

More Sarah errata, etc.:
1. Damage for Sarah's Spin Edge Kick should be 25, not 21.
2. Damage for Hand Hold Neck Cut is 30, not 25.
3. Some of the throw damages listed as a single number, are actually a series of cumulative damages. This could affect the result if a round ends before a throw does. Myke will probably not wish to note them in the notes column, but I'll list them here for anyone interested in knowing them:
Neck Cut Slash = 30+10
Shell Break Elbow = 30+10
Lightning Knee Smash = 5+10+20+8
Lightning Knee Smash (facing wall) = 20+10+10+10+15+5
Gatling Kick Beat = 5+5+5+5+5+5+5+15+10.
4. Seemingly inconsistent is that TT d+K and TT D+K are given separate listings (even though they have identical stats), but not TT d+P and TT D+P; or TT df+K and TT DF+K. Myke, I assume you'll tell me the same thing you did for the four different Straight Lead entries -- it's the way they are shown in the book. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif If not, what am I overlooking?
5. The Heel Sword Slash causes a "Smash."
6. Myke, for some reason, you want to note those moves that "Force Crouch," as in the Side Hook Kick notes. Well, you can add the KKK Side Kick Combination (in Flamingo Stance) to those moves.
7. When a standing defender is hit by a fully charged Crush Tornado, it causes the wiggling red joystick animation (for struggling) to appear. I am not sure what this signifies here, since the "stagger" note doesn't come on in the action box when this happens in training mode, so I don't know how to classify this effect in the notes column, but it certainly seems noteworthy.
8. The note for Guard Crash Sword says "Turns opponent around on Counter Hit." The counter hit is not necessary. If you hit a standing non-defender with it, he/she is turned around.
9. The note column should show her Punch High Kick and two Vertical Hook Kick entries can be G-cancelled.
10. The Crush Tornado is supposedly reversible. I was unable to reverse either version (high or midlevel) using Aoi. This may just be a skill problem, as the animation for the move is difficult to track. Hopefully, someone with better skills will be willing to corroborate this, or show me up by verifying the two versions can be reversed. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif SummErs? Yupa? Myke? Anyone?
11. There have been a couple of mentions that u+K and uf+K are slightly different. The Sarah Dojo indicates the uf version gives slightly more forward movement; Robyrt's brief FAQ goes further and says there is a frame difference. Such minor differences can affect combos. I've looked at both moves in slow motion, but can see no difference -- no slight forward movement. Can any of the Sarah experts (Yupa, Nutlog, Adio, etc.), or anyone else, comment on this?
12. Using VP reversal terminology, Sarah's Hide Side Kick acts as a Sabaki against both "sidekicks" and "mid kicks," contradicting the note on the VP move list. This answers a question I had asked in my first post in this thread.
13. The hop height for the Step Hook Kick hop attack is indicated as (mid); my eye seems to say it should be (ascending).
14. With regards to her two hop punches: Because of the Moonsault, I can find no way to input a "uf" version of her Elbow. I suggest this be noted (unless someone knows a way to do it). As for her Step Straight hop attack: Of the various ways to input a hop attack, only one works to get a "uf" version of this move. You must input and hold uf+K (including keeping the K button pressed), then press P at the midpoint of her hop. I don't know if you think this is worthy of a list note, but at least this documents how it can be done for the Sarah duffers like me. I don't think it's widely known; I did a quick search and couldn't find any other posts mentioning this; if I missed one, I apologize. This is probably also a good time to mention the easiest way to input the hop punches (other than in the uf direction). You dont' have to worry about pressing P at a certain time in the jump. Simply input U(or UB)+P, releasing P immediately. Then if you release the joystick back to neutral "immediately" (while ascending), you get her Elbow. If you continue holding on to the joystick, you get the Step Straight. This works for all other characters as well, I believe (so far I've tested it with Kage and Lion as well). For hop kicks, a variation of this principle applies. Hold on to both the joystick directional input and K button press until the appropriate height for the kick you want; releasing them both then will give you the right one. So in Sarah's case, releasing them both while descending gives her Step Heel Kick. Again, I apologize if this has been posted before, but it can't hurt to re-mention it.
15. Here's a little something I came across while doing this research. I had mentioned earlier in the thread that VFDC was correct in listing PPu+PK as ending in a Somersault Kick, and not a Rising Kick (which the VP list asserts). A strange thing though, which may explain the VP error: If you input "u" on the second punch and continue to hold the stick in that direction for the whole combo, which in classic VP notation is PU+(PPK), the final kick will be a Rising Kick, not a Somersault Kick! But even odder, the three puches will not register as the PPu+P combo, but as the "normal" PPP combo! I find this interesting.

For the record, I've now tested ALL of Sarah's moves on the VFDC Version C Command List for damage, hit level, and reverse level, and the only errors/problems with them that I've found are those mentioned in this thread.

 

Re: Back Turned oddities

I had posted: " 5. The Heel Sword Slash causes a "Smash."."

I said this because the special knockdown animation for the Heel Sword Slash is the same as for the Spin Edge Kick and the Spin Heel Sword, which are noted on the list as "Slam." But the term "Flop" is also used in other places, and the animations for these three moves actually looks like what I suppose a flop would look like. I've been spending some time using the search function trying to clarify this, and from what I can gather, I think a flop involves the downed opponent's legs stretching upwards briefly while he/she is lying on his/her back, which is what happens with the knockdown animations from all three of these moves; but frankly I am getting confused from reading the older threads. So what is the "official" difference between a flop and a slam? And whatever it is, the Heel Sword Slash has the same animation as the other two moves. So all three are either a Smash, or they all need to be changed to a Flop.

 

Re: Back Turned oddities

Also, concerning the subject of special animations: Would the knockdown that is caused by Sarah's d+K+G during a MC be considered a foot crumble?

 

Re: Back Turned oddities

Well, generally, "flop" is used to refer to the effect of a move on a standing opponent, whereas "slam" is it's effect on a floating opponent. "Flop"s generally have some type of combo option from them, where are "slam"s are good for guaranteed down attacks.

The general rule is any move that causes a "flop" animation will also cause a "slam" in a float. (I'm not aware of any exceptions, but there may be one). Also, any move that causes forced crouch on a standing opponent will cause a "slam" on a floating opponent. (Again, there may be an exception, but I'm not aware of any)

Also, the FL KKK does not cause crouch. You just always get the MC standing sidekick animation on connecting with it, which makes it good for that extra bit of distance to the wall.