Sarah Weaknesses and Potential Work Arounds

so, tested FS vs. evade and it works almost exactly as i had predicted. try this: record sarah 4k+g, evade, dash cancel into 44p or 6p. then block that and immediately forward slide into FS p or FS p+k. unless i'm super shitty at dash canceling, this should counter (oh hai +12 side turned). FS p worked against the same scenario against 66k+g but FS p+k failed. the best part is since their evade failed, FS p+k is a counter pretty much no matter what. if they miss the dash cancel, they're pretty much fucked: FS into whatever amuses you at the time. BS sabakis work against -4 evade cancel into 44p and give you like +18 or something, elbows give you a free BS p+k on the sabaki.

still need to see how this goes against fuzzy, from the frames i think the only real thing you can do is BS, but if they're fuzzying there's a good chance they won't throw an attack out. it's a gamble, but getting off FS p+k on counter is no joke. i think this is what FS is meant for outside of the cancels from moves. FS on big disadvantage and exploit evades.

re: FS eating launchers: do we mean after canceling from like 6kp, or are we talking FS naked? cause FS naked you kind of have to look at as a taunt, i guess. "launch me! launch me!" then BS and whiff punish. or BS and do nothing if they don't take the bait. if they dash up on you after you BS they have to worry about BS k+g and BS 2k. they can't just come up on you for free at that point.

 

I am not entirely sure what above post is trying to say, but pointing out that backward slide has a sabaki in it. I notice it sabakis high punches, mid punches and mid elbows at least..

 

FS and BS are good for oki. 2p will stuff it out in most scenarios. is better for pressure.

If you go into BS moves arent fast enough to beat an opponent dashing on reaction and punishing. Even if Sarah doesnt do an input after BS she still gets punished.

 

They won't even have to dash, just launch the BS on reaction. At least with all the launchers I've tried.

 

Well, I think we've beaten this dead horse around long enough regarding FS, BS and Step. Only time will tell us what it is worth. I'm looking forward to people experimenting with it and hopefully coming up with some diabolic stuff that I can't currently see.

Once I'm done with my last final, I think I'm going to start compiling my notes regarding meaty attacks with Sarah. It seems many people probably have better insight than me regarding this (as far as I'm concerned, I'm a fraud as last night's ranked session proved to me) but I would be interested in hearing what other people use as their core moves for meaty attacks?

seems to be the optimal choice simply since you're opponent cannot evade. You at worst get +5 FL, which is where you want to be with Sarah.

 

Well, even though I don't like the slides I noticed FS + does 21 damage, meaning it can break mid rising attacks. Only 3 active frames, but if you do it after something like + throw it will beat an immediate mid rising attack, leaving you side turned in FL at +12. It's very risky and far fetched and I wouldn't use it but maybe someone can make something of it.

 

what i'm saying is: you FS, they launch on reaction, but you've already gone into BS, they whiff and you hit BS p+k to whatever.

so, i got to ask, cause this horse ain't dead as you think, how are we as as group using FS? sliding leisurely toward for a second with your twat wide open for their boot? are people really FSing from across the screen and expecting it to work?

here's the facts, which apparently we did not know until i bothered to do the testing: a max speed 6p+k+gp is about 24 frames. this is comparable to something like 4k+g, so if you're in a spacing to use that you're at the right range to use FS. what i'm suggesting you basically 6p+k+g to FS and IMMEDIATELY do one of the following things:

1) p
2) hit 4 to BS

FS p is every bit as legit as dash up p: it's 12 frames and it has an "elbow" followup. counting the dash frames dash p is only very slightly faster to come out. what you want to happen is for your opponent to twitch and try to punish. most launchers will lose to FS p if they're not right on the ball (figure they've got between 7 and 9 frames to recognize FS initation and react), and almost all of them lose to BS if you've spaced this properly. if they twitch and whiff or get counter-hit, you're either in at +4 or can BS punish. hopefully this instills some respect for the FS and they stop trying to punish on reaction. this does a few things:

1) you have now established you can use FS p as an entry to p-like "elbow"/throw games.
2) FS k, FS p+k, FS k+g, and FS 2k/2kk open up since they must respect the p and react to it somehow other than reflexive launcher.
3) the opponent now must deal with BS when you BS. they can't just rush you down, and if they want to do that it's a bad call on their part.

more on this subject: you've got a 16 frame BS p that leads to at least a 3pk or a fucking 1k on counterhit, you've got a mid combo starter, a mid full circular and a low that's +3 on hit or a combo on counterhit. so there's something to beat almost any attempt to move up on you in BS. smart opponents might just wait the BS animation out, but then they've given you the opportunity to move back in with BS p or to toss out something like k+gk or 4k+g when the BS animation ends and they think they're "safe."

that's how i'm proposing to use FS. you're not in FS any longer than it takes to throw out an attack or to transition to BS, and you're doing it in a space where FS p probably beats a launcher and BS causes the launcher to whiff. do that and you are using FS properly.

 

What situations are you talking about exactly? This sounds like complete bullshit to me, sorry... You can always launch back slide on reaction?

 

if you BS in their face (e.g from 6kp6) then they might be always be able to launch on reaction, the fastest thing out of BS is 16 frames so it's definitely dicey. but that's not what i'm talking about.

the situation i'm referring to is exactly what i outlined in the post: you FS from about 4k+g range or so and immediately cancel to BS. you should be going into BS right at the edge of their launcher range. if they try to launch on reaction they should whiff if you're spaced right. if they don't, they're too far away to do anything against BS without you having the BS options at your disposal to interrupt with. furthermore, if they don't basically start their launcher in the first tenth of a second of your FS animation then FS p should beat it out. does that make sense?

if trying to twitch-launch FS gets them counter hit or whiff punished a significant portion of the time, the rest of your FS options open up. this is almost perfectly analogous to establishing a good jab in boxing terms; if they're afraid of your jab, all your other punches open up. if they're afraid of being interrupted or whiff punished if they go after FS with a launcher, everything else from FS opens up too.

look, i'm dumping some good tech in this thread: if you don't see how killing evades from nitaku into +12 side-turned is a really nifty trick for someone as linear as sarah, i don't know what to tell you.

 

So what stops them from reacting to your Slide shenanigans with their own backdash and then just launching your whiffed BS move? Some characters probably have to think something like this, with Taka I can just laugh at Sarah and kill you with 33P or 33P+K everytime.

 

Further test:

6KP6 on block, can interrupt FS P only with 13f moves or low punch or other techcrouching moves.
6KP6 on normal hit, can interrupt FS P with low punch or other techcrouching moves.

KP6 on block, can interrupt FS P only with 13f moves or low punch or other techcrouching moves.
KP6 on normal hit, interrupt with low punch or other techcrouching moves.

These are the best on block it seems. Low punch or some other techcrouch move always works. In all above cases backward slide will sabaki HP, MP, elbow. Note: FS PP is high-mid.

The rest are worse, like PPP6 - FS P can be interrupted with 16 frame moves on block and hit etc.

If you try something other than FS P, Sarah can be generally just launched with a knee-class move even if the FS starters hit on NH.

 

No need to get defensive here. This thread is about collaboration. We just want to make sure you aren't wasting your time as I certainly do appreciate the effort and research.

As the undisputed master of the xx+ ( it isn't called the Beasty for nothing ), it generally it works as follows:
1) Use a move with good push, blocked for example.
2) Opponent begins chain from too far away and you interrupt with + after a back dash to space properly.

The key with + is that your opponent misjudges distance and begins attacking, therefore allowing you to use the huge hitbox of + to interrupt them. It fails hard to moves that cover good distances (All of Shun and Lion's moves) and people who advance cautiously. I think the later situation is what Shinryu is talking about.

Perhaps FS from distance is the "moral" complement to the Beasty as you want someone who is not reckless enough to get hit by the Beasty. I will have to test it out to see how effective it is as I've all but dropped FS from my gameplan. Hopefully throwing it into the mix makes Sarah more fun as she has gotten really boring for me because she just feels so damn limited.

Thanks for the effort Shinryu!

 

But it doesn't kill evade. Everyone knows how to cancel their evades in FS and if they don't you're better off just doing a delayed anyway. The problem with doing FS + in this situation is it will lose to both defense (any kind of evade cancel) and abare (a launcher even).

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as a jerk here but I just don't see the greatness of FS/BS. I I think it's great you're researching it though, and maybe you'll come up with some cool things to prove me wrong .

 

except it doesn't lose, that's the point. look, test it out in training if you don't believe me, but here's the math: from a blocked -6, the fastest 17f launcher possible for the defender from a failed evade dash cancel comes out in 6 + 11 + 17 = 34 frames assuming a frame-perfect cancel. FS p+k comes out in about 12-14 + 16 = 28 to 30 frames. barring evasive properties of the launcher, it will counterhit a 17 frame launcher. at -6, FS p+k should actually beat most attacks up to 13 frames here, certainly should beat almost everything at -7 or worse barring evasion/sabaki properties.

FS p should beat quite a lot from a dash cancel that doesn't evade high as well.i've seen FS p beat 44p dash cancel at -4, so the frames work out pretty well (4 + 11 + 10 vs 12 + 12); it's possible my dash cancel or evade wasn't tight but feel free to confirm or deny all of this yourself.

FS is dicier against fuzzy at -5 (figuring -5 + 5 frame crouch dash giving about 27/28 frames to come out), but even then FS p should work (12-14+12 so 24-26 frames total. i don't think FS is the strongest option against fuzzy, would rather just 4k against that).

this use of FS loses hard to straight abare, yes, but so do throws. i would only really use it against someone who is going to play very moral at disadvantage, if for no other reason than they're less likely to pop into abare in any situation including having FS bearing down on them if they decide to just block, they do have a lot of room to try to counterhit with something, but a lot of the faster responses lose to BS sabaki and they still have to recognize the situation. consider e.g. at -6 the fastest possible response for most characters that beats BS sabaki is k at 14-15 frames*, so they have a 4-5 frame window to recognize and use the move before FS p can beat it. i fail to see how delayed 1k is drastically superior (guaranteed damage potential aside) seeing as it just loses to guarding straight up; this at least requires some kind of reaction to deal with.

the big unanswered question here is whether or not a BS p or BS k comes out quickly enough after the BS transition to interrupt things or not in the evade situation. if the BS cancel is instant then BS k could interrupt quite a bit at -8 or -6 (figuring it should come out in 30 frames then), but i suspect that you have to BS a few frames before the moves come out. could be a bit of an option select though against e.g. crouch dash cancels, as then BS sabaki handles p/elbow (probably guaranteeing BS k) and BS k picks up crouching guards and lower/slower attacks. will test that.

i don't mean to come off defensive, it's just e.g. manjimaru posts the exact frame stats i gave like seven posts ago. it makes it seem like people aren't actually reading the posts after awhile. if someone tests my scenarios with frame-tight dash cancel execution and can't replicate them i'm more than happy to admit i'm wrong. but on the math and on my tests this all works out. prove me wrong and then shit on it, not the other way around.

*ok yeah 2p! 2p fucks up FS! except you're at +5 or better and you can use 4k instead of going into FS to counterhit stagger 2p, so if they start throwing 2p bullshit reflexively that's entirely to your advantage. evading becomes riskier because of FS, encouraging 2p or guarding, making entry into combo or FL with 4k much more viable.

 

Oookey, it seems for some reason you're assuming the opponent will just mindlessly buffer an attack right away after their evade cancel? Why would they do that?

 

Why don't you try reading for a change? Seriously. Why are you rambling on about this?

 

and what is delay 1k assuming? hey, guess what: if i dash cancel guard, delay 1k loses too and i get punished at -15! whereas with FS i have the options to go into all the other FS moves against dash cancel guard like FS 2k or 2kk, FS k, FS pp, FS p to throw. please think the situation through a little better, ok? if you just assume the opponent always does what fucks you then you might as well put the stick down and walk away. i am not saying you FS every time the opponent gives you -6, i'm saying it's an option that makes something like 4k/8k much more viable.

look, this thread was supposed to be about sarah's weaknesses and workarounds. having read the thread, no one had posted the idea of using FS against -6 or worse disadvantage and no one had bothered to ever figure out how long you had to be in FS before you could get moves out. i got that data and i proved FS works against evade but half the thread so reflexively shits on slide i don't think any of you have even bothered to test it. that half of you seem to be unable to understand the utterly simple idea of using FS to BS at a distance as a feint to draw a reaction and punish is fucking mindboggling.

the people who post good shit, you know who you are, and thanks. rest of you, go fuck your scrubby selves and your shitbag reaction gifs and your smarmy fucking uninformed bullshit. if you're going to be a bunch of fucking theory fighters you should at least understand how the fucking game works. see, there are these things called frames that are kind of important and you can do math with them. jesus christ, nevermind.

 

Alright, can we have everyone simmer down.

Shinryu, I get what your saying and I'm not going to say anything else about FS until I get a chance to try it out myself. If you did the frame testing and everything works, then kudos to the tech. Not sure how much I'll be able to use it without a decent amount of experimentation and practice but I'm sure some people will find successful way to incorporate it quickly. You're right, this thread is about figuring out everything we can about Sarah and I applaud your research on FS.

Everyone else, if you don't want to use FS, then don't use FS. We've all said our pieces at this point. The last thing we need is to be "just another online forum that has the stereotypical people being dicks but are supposedly cool people in real life." I'll admit I chuckled at a couple of banter posts, but this is quickly devolving into something pathetic so I'd like to put all the stance stuff behind us for the time being.

Still doing some testing on the meaty stuff but I was curious if other people have had any luck with meaty lab work?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra2Rye7YDFg