Punishing (ever so softly) with Aoi

Is there anything guaranteed after a 6+p+g, 2/8?

 

I just want to say MAD PROPS on this list. I'm going to pick up aoi behind this. Also very useful list overall for all chars.

 

What are you talking about? I didn't do shit.

 

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While it would be cool to have that, I'm not sure I understand how you'd do it. You've got a couple cases for moves that avoid punishers.

The simplest is stuff like Jacky's Slide Shuffle, which just jumps out of range... those are already marked in his command list, so nothing really needs to be done.

Second, there are moves that just have unusual positioning, which I think(?) is what you're referring to in your example above. Basically any move that hits from outside of elbow range without causing either character to move on block fits this... you can't punish with an elbow regardless of how much advantage you have. Unfortunately, I don't see any easy way to note things like that in the list. That is, as far as I know elbow range isn't consistent across all charactes, and it gets vastly more complicated as soon as you get past 14 frames, and there isn't even any consistency in the type of punishing moves between characters. I can't think of any possible way to add info like that to a chart like the move lists without needing to add something like a column for each character denoting some special case where their strongest punisher just happens to miss. It seems easier just to learn from experience.

(Also: did I misread, or are moves with built-in evades not marked (i.e. Aoi's 3_9P+K doesn't appear to mention that it can evade during startup), that kind of info seems similarly useful, and much easier to add)

 

Blah blah.

 

I think I was unclear... that is, I spent too much time discussing move properties, mostly for my own benefit, when you obviously know all that. What I'm questioning is how do you plan to format the command lists to include that information. Are you really advocating adding an additional 17 columns to every move on the command list indicating the strongest possible punishment each character can apply on block. Again, I'm not saying that's bad info... just it ceases to be a simple command list when you try and include *everything*. Any attempt to do what you're implying should probably be created as charts in the wiki, not additions to the command list. So, copy all the info you already have in this thread over to Aoi's section, and ask around for other people to start creating the similar stuff for other characters?

And 3_9P+K had nothing at all to do with punishment. But, it was another piece of info missing from the command lists that stood out as much simpler to add than what you're asking for.

 

What?

 

Ah, okay, I see. It still sounds better as entirely seperate chart to me. That is, the very fact that you're choosing two characters to compare means the existing command lists can't support that change. And once you're actually writing code to create a chart like you describe, I don't see any great reasons to use the existing command list structure instead of just writing an entirely seperate tool... outside of the nicety of having all the info in one place, it doesn't seem to make the task any easier.

I guess ultimately it's up to Myke (did he write the command lists?) to decide if he wants to do it. Whereas, if you just throw some charts on the wiki, everyone on the site who happens to have some matchup knowledge can potentially fill it in.

 

If you have time to play you also have time to test and teach. <span style='font-size: 8pt'>(Do you peeps truly want a new generation of "good players?")
</span>

 

Ah... I thought you wrote some of jeffry wiki stuff? Anyway, you'd probably need to create a new page for each character for a chart.

I think you missed the point of a wiki though... wikis are meant to be editable by everyone. A wiki is specifically the best possible place to put incomplete information, because anyone can go in and help finish it, and the end result is integrated far better than a list of repeated forum posts on the same topic. It's true that for it all to work it, you need a lot of people positng, and a lot of verification of new posts, but someone's got start somewhere...

It's also true that people probably use the command list more, but it's meant as a quick lookup tool, and gives some minimal move info (most importantly simple frame data, which can't be easily determined in-game). Something like a wiki is perfect for an actual complete discussion of the game. And using them isn't really that much harder than posting in a forum. If you want to do more complex formatting though, you'll need to go search out the specific syntax that they use (though you can really just copy anything you need from other pages).

I guess I'm kinda being hypocritical here. I will admit I only read this site when I have a free minute at work, so for now it's in my best interest not to get myself too involved in some long wiki article (it also means I can't test anything as I'm never near an xbox, but I digress). Maybe one of these days I'll actually turn on my computer instead of just playing online VF5 all evening, and actually do some of the things I'm advocating.

 

If only more would say that.

 

In my opinion,

http://virtuafighter.com/view.php?section=vf4&file=vf4evo_counter_tables.php

is a fine way to do a punishment chart. I think it makes sense to put it in the VF5 system section of the wiki, rather than under individual characters.

I don't think the wiki is editable by the public at large yet; if you show an interest, I'm sure Myke will be happy to get you a login.

If I run out of stuff to work on on the jeff wiki (not likely anytime soon), I can see about formatting some of Sebo's punishment posts for the wiki. (sebo - were you cutting & pasting from a document, or actually editing everything in the forum?)

 

That chart is just frame data... but in a real match knowing that you have 15 frames advantage on block doesn't actually guarantee that every attack your character has that is 15 frames or faster will hit... most commonly because the opponent is out of range. I think attack range is much less standardized in VF5 too, so the VF4 chart probably did work better in VF4. But anyway, Sebo's trying to list of the best specific guaranteed move, rather than using move classes, to create a chart that avoids the range problem and such.

And is the wiki really not editable by the public... I mean obviously you have to have an account, but, while I haven't tried to get one yet, I figured that was at least as easy as signing up for the forum? There's kinda no point in using a wiki if people can't edit it... I wonder if we could get all the people with character blogs to move all that stuff to the wiki?

 

Started discussing this in

http://virtuafighter.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=185433#Post185433

so other non-aoi players can throw their two cents in.

 

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