Proof that Kage is a cheap motherfucker!

Well, I have to admit - Shang got me fooled there for a moment... I'm just a casual player, nowhere near pro and will never be one (too much actual life on my head), and a well-played Kage always gives me the worst run for my money. So here I am thinking that some really good player got to a conclusion Kage's cheap, so he probably is and I simply haven't realized it in my happy n00bness - tough cookies, let's just play the game and wait for next Evo /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif .

In later posts Shang seemed to really lose his cool though, and that elitism, insulting new players and mods got really too far... So, there goes that "respect" from before... but who cares /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif ?

Shang, please remember the wisdom of Genki Sudou - "WE ARE ALL ONE". And watch your blood pressure when talking about video games /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif .

Cheers, I'm outta here.

 

I'm going to say that while I don't condone Shang's bitching specifically....

I'm going to say that Myke's argument also leaves out alot of important details (for whatever reason) that shows how strong Kage actually is...

For example, about Kage's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif...

This move is probably one of the reasons that makes Kage a top tier character among the high level players.

When this move counter hits, if Kage immediately turn around with G and throws without any delay, it will result in a 0frame throw (such as TFT) that is very difficult to escape from (you can NOT crouch under it). This tidbit makes the move one of the most dangerous tools that Kage has along with its multiple sabaki properties. Super safe with very very high damage potential.

Anyways... of course it's a big "if" you can hit check as a kage player or if the move counter hits, etc. etc. etc.

But... if we look at similar moves for other characters, such as Lau's 66P+K on normal hit. This same technique does not work with Lau... but it does with Kage. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

Anyways, as shou would say, no tiers but your tears.

 

Shang could make all the arguments he makes w/o being a dick. If he's been banned before for being a dick it shouldn't surprise him when after acting like a dick again, he gets banned.

I think that Myke might have been quick on the ban trigger b/c Kage and Kage users were the targets of his dickishness, but then again, Shang has been banned in the past for things not having anything to do with this.

And as I said before, I do think Kage is a character who makes it possible for players with less skill to get more wins than they could with any other character.

But it's not like he's invinceable or something.

 

It seems like just reward for a 19 frame counter hit attack considering Kage could eat a big reverse nitaku attack (remember there's no clash for zero frame throws) if he guesses incorrectly. This is a lot worse than, say, El Blaze's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, which has this TT throw flow chart capability on normal hit and floats on ocunter hit for massive damage.

In truth though I would rather have Lau's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif than Kage's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. Any day.

 

Wait... what? What is the reasoning behind no clash for 0-frame throws? It's only 0-frame if there is no attack occuring, if there is an RN attack from the opponent, we will have to apply the clash equation... so chances are the only thing you can beat the throw attempt is a P or something. Kage can always opt for backturned P+K, etc. etc. for massive damage as well. I don't see the argument listing "if this if that". I simply gave a strict comparison of the possible options that Kage has compared to similar situations for other character. What can Lau do from back turned? Nothing that can combo unfortunately.

Well, play Lau then? Just because you rather have the move doesn't make it as good as Kage's 4K damage potential wise.

 

Ken I. beat my 5-minute Goh like 23-4 with that rat bastard Kage, cheap dirty son of a bitch!!

lol, of course, I don't own VF5 or a PS3 and I kind of suck so that might be the reason.

Seriously, Kage reminds me of a powered down Hayabusa from DoA4. At the very least he doesn't have punch reversals that lead to a TFT that goes 80-110 dmg lmao.

VF isn't perfect balanced like people spout, but I still like it more than other games. And that's all I care about, I don't play games cause they are balanced I play them cause they are fun and unique. As you can tell from the larger fighting game communities in the USA, people don't seem to care so much about balance but more weither the game is fun and has a cool community.

 

I'm not sure why tiers for mid-level play should matter at all.

 

lau backturned combo last round

 

Leak from Segas press office.

http://www.mypicshare.com/mrjezxhppic.html

 

Throws don't clash after /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif counter hit -- try it. Basically, Kage can either cause a lot of damage if he guesses correctly or can receive a lot of damage if he guesses incorrectly. It's a guessing game and to me it seems like a fair one given that you need 19 frames and a counter hit to even get there.

I DO play Lau and I do think /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is a really, really good move. Great distance, good follow-ups, safe, two hits so a bit weird to evade even if the right direction, avoids certain attacks in the start-up animation, decent base damage...what more can you ask for. (Too bad he's such a boring character.)

I don't know if the sabaki property of Kage's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif has changed from VF4, but in VF4 for Kage to actually sabaki an elbow he has to basically do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif in at least +1. If he is worse than that he can't sabaki an elbow. So in Shang's hypothetical example--i.e. after blocked elbow--Kage cannot even sabaki a retaliatory elbow with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif.

Also, from BT Lau can do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. That takes a lot of damage dude especially if the first hit is a counter, and especially considering the string is completely safe since you can hit check the first attack.

 

All a bunch of Kage playing pussies & Myke only reason I'm telling u to stfu about this thread is b/c you know in your Lesbianess that it's true so again STFU!

Lastly Shang I know you're upset that you're settling for your cantonese girlfriend instead of marrying jerky well Good Luck anyways. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

Bang -- spot on.

 

Well well well I am sure Myke and Ice-9 are infallible objective judges of this subject, since umm, they are Kage players.

Clearly Shang is not the most articulate writer. Well okay to be fair he can be very articulate when he is describing how someone is gay. But never mind.



But let me just tell you,

You know, guess what I PLAY LAU BECAUSE HE IS FRIGGING CHEAP! (Although not as cheap as Kage) He even allows me to sometimes beat a better player thanks to Lau's inherent strength! I overuse cheap moves like f,f+P+K as long as my opponent allows me to because it's more fun to play cheap and win then use stupid moves and weak chars and lose! At least I am man enough to admit when I use a cheap character and a cheap move. I am willing to admit a character I play is inherently strong and gives me an edge. If everything was perfect and balanced there would be no point for constant version revision for character/moves imbalance. The fact that Sega continues to release a new version implies that they recognizes that their game is not perfect and recognizes somethings in the game are abused and can use tweaking.

It maybe difficult to admit that your competitiveness is helped by the character you play. But say in Tekken if I use Law to beat a Marduk player I would fully admit that my character choice helps me. And consider the fact that many Westerners who choose to compete in Japan have tendency to play Kage to survive. (Back in VF4 two out of three English speaking players that participated in a Korean tournament played Kage.)


To suggest that certain aspects of the VF play mechanics are unbalanced became some kind of heretical statements deserving Spanish inquisition. To be fair, the reason such suggestions are frowned upon is because such a statement rarely leads to anything productive. And that's true.


But let me ask you. Would Myke have posted that you can OM->K against Kage's f,f+P+K+G if there are no complaint ever registered about that move? Or a lengthy retort about how to defend against Kage's moves? No, people rarely post that kind of stuff for public consumption. I myself have little incentives to post counter strategies against Jeffry and Lau. Granted the discussion could have been carried out in a more civilized manner. But the point is that recognizing Kage's strength (or Lau's cheapness, Jeffry's cheapness, whatever) is an honest step toward discussing and devising counter strategies. In the Western playing world Kage just seem to be dominating, and the few Western players who play competitively in the Japanese scene seem to be majorly Kage players. (And just be frigging be honest and ask yourself. Would you be playing Kage if he didn't give you more wins than your other characters?)

So far this thread basically seems to boil down to "Character A is cheap because he has move B!" "No your character is also cheap because it has move C!" (Honestly I think nobody would complain about Kage if everyone had TFT, but I digress) While it may look pathetic and is, I honestly think this kind of discussion actually has a merit. Because it's an honest, although sometimes misguided, debate. ANd this game you don't win by performing some fancy combos but countering your opponent.

 

Seriously... like what Hyun said..

way to miss the freaking point lol.

I really don't understand why you guys defending Kage are using the exact same logic that Shang uses....

In order to utilize the special properties of /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, it requires distance control, stance/move/character match up knowledge, frame situation, and the opponent not knowing how to evade and not hold G. It's definitely not nearly as safe as Kage's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif blocked or evaded. Basically, you are assuming the Lau player is a super pro while the opponent is a complete noob in the same vein as Shang's argument.

Like Hyun said, I also admit my character (Eileen) is top tier. I make no mistake about it. While I can tell your all of her weaknesses, but it doesn't change the fact that she is a top tier character.

Those of you telling me Lau's backturned options should look at Kage's backturned options. Don't just look at Lau even, look at most other characters. Lau can't even ARE backturned as well as Kage to utilize the back flip kick in that video, and Kage can combo off BT /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif where Lau can not... I mean, throwing character strengths aside, these are in fact different not matter what you say.

Also ice-9, what moves are you trying to RN Kage after being counter hit by /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif? Are you even testing realistic options? You do remember that Kage has BT /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, etc. etc...


I don't know what's with all the stupid crap like that pictures you guys posted. When did VFDC turn into such a dump? Do you guys even understand the reason for this discussion or understand the VF concepts that came out as the result of it? Tiers not mattering at mid-level play... lol Tiers definitely matter at mid level play. Only when it's high level play does tier goes out of the discussion. A Kage player can probably dominate at mid-level player using that technique I just described, or have a very very easy time playing the game cause.

1) He can force the opponent into making extreme guesses such as RN after /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif counter hit, making the guessing game extremely easy.
2) He can force the opponent into avoiding moves that will create -8 situations.
3) He can force the opponent into evading a certain direction.

Unless mid-level play is considered mashing by you guys, then I don't see why you guys are even in this discussion.

 

But if Sega balance and revise the game based on data from results from the best players, and if at the uber level there isn't the level of disparity at the top that there is at an average level.

How can you possibly solve this problem?

The one thing that nobody in the Kage is Cheap camp has done is suggest a solution.

Also, don't the players gameplay choices start at character select, not after you hear 'fight'?

Play to win has to be the most fundamental concept.

Another point that occurs to me is that the reason for disparity between the western game and the Japanese game is that the players aren't presented with the same obstacles to overcome, well now you are, raise your game and find a way to win.

 

Wow we need american tiers and japanese tiers.......

 

That really hurt man. I try, I really do...

 

So what is the point of this discussion, to reach an agreement with absolutely no chance of any repercussion?

And If we don't understand the concepts, it shouldn't be very difficult for you to shoot down the points I raised?

The only possible outcome I can think of is a mid level tier list, but then considering the skill level is even less of a constant than it is when you're only talking about the best players then the list would be pretty useless?

 

I didn't disagree with some of the things you said later on. While I'm certainly aware of Kage's strength, I'm still an Eileen player, and I do not start threads like this one. I only jumped in to add some info for people to decide for themselves.

You like this move, then play the character. I've said it over and over again. I just think it's ridiculous some of the things that come out in order to defend Kage like he's not top tier. So the fuck what he's top tier lol. Does that hurt your feelings as a Kage player? The solution is to recognize and explore the things that Kage can do just like how Eileen was the target when the game first came out, and this is often achieved in threads like this one.

But in any case, what point did you raise again, and why should I shoot it down?

 

i cant believe this topic is still under discussion. the point was clearly made on page two...in a very entertaining manner might i add.

lets have a kage off! just to see who the best kage player is. then after that, everyone of you guys should get on shun's raft (as konjou suggested), drift away, and get blown up.