Powerful VF5FS tech: ECDGTE

Oki Bilal only was talking about Brad. The more people explore and find solutions the better! It's weird that 4p with aki won't hit. Jeff K wouldn't hit either. Akira 46p+k will hit the same direction as 4p though. So looks like high semicirculars / fully circulars suck. Brad is blessed though since 4pk hits on both hits. Not sure what else that is high hits that's semi.

Krye I'm mostly testing of a -5 situation elbow and even then I find hitting with an elbow is hard (and characters with a 6pk have it best hitscanning). It's the CD that makes it vunerable to a mid during a small window I guess. I'm not sure on oki the situation is really dynamic dependent on combo ender in many cases (do you need to dash up to apply pressure etc) feel free to test it out.
At -6 (4pk guarded) and at -7 (46k+g) I still find it impossible to hit with a delayed 6p+k no matter what I do. It's just something regarding high attacks.

Brad 2k+p6p (-9) > ECGTE can't be stopped by Brads K+G which is a high fully circular at 17f. He will however always eat Jacky's 46k+g due to it being mid.

I also don't understand why you would prefer ETEG over it in your wakeup really ever. It's not like you're escaping more throws. ETEG has no advantage over ECDTEG what so ever (that I can think of) just more problems. What would be the benefit of doing ETEG over ECDTEG?

 

Since ECDTEG (if this becomes a commonly used technique we need a better abbreviation ) is pretty input heavy, I'd prefer ETEG in this situation since it gives me more room to respond to my opponent.

 

Well it leaves you open to fully circulars highs, being delay launched and semicircular highs by not cancelling your evade so

 

I'll just attempt a launcher on wakeup. Every time.

EDIT: On wakeup your opponent can input the full circular high while you're getting up so you're not fast enough to duck under it with the crouch dash cancel. So if someone times their circulars to catch you right then it wouldn't make a difference if you CD cancel the evade.

 

Yes, Seidon, that was what I meant.

Also what I said earlier about a bigger window for delayed attacks when your opponent is in larger disadvantage doesn't make any sense, I don't know what I was thinking. However, the window to hit a high circular does become larger.

 

After just watching Renzo VS Tokido, this tech is good to be brought here.

Against Jacky's 1P+K strings, you can actually do this ECDGTE to make you more safe. You can easily evade his string and avoid his throw mix up. Actually all you need to do is ECDG unless Jacky tend to delay throw. From my experience, when you have +5 this tech is always useful.

 

Isn't this in the tutorial, basically? Just without the TE expressly stated, but people know to do so whenever guarding. It definitely deserves a thread to remind people how powerful it is, but I feel like people are acting like this is new information.

 

The tutorial mentions both 66G and 33G and then asks for 66G. However, you can perform 33G and complete the exercise. The exercises stop just short of introducing ECDGTE.

 

I tested the techniques, and it seems that CD cancel is indeed the better option, not because of fuzzying of throws which it cannot do, but because you can duck sufficiently slow high fullcirculars if you inputted a CD cancel. You also may end up blocking low circulars.

And theres a lot of high circulars.

The technique certainly doesnt duck throws, its much too slow for that.

The technique imo doesn't work very well in high disadvantage though.

 

I did some tests trying to take apart these new defenisve techs.
Maybe some or all of these info are well known but here's my findings (I've done a lot of cross tests to be almost 100% sure but I could have made some mistakes).

EDIT here you can find the details about how I got these results.

First of all I calculated how much is the recovery of a failed evade and got 25 frame (you can block from the 26th frame).

Then the evade's window in which if a move is active it triggers a succesfull evade: from 1st to 13th frame (1,13). (EDIT: I was inputting the evade after a moves that leaves +0 so I got a "wrong" failed evade test.)
The evade system is like in vanilla where an evade is succesfull if inputted AFTER the start of the opposing's move.

The next tihng I needed to find out was how much frames are needed to recover from a crouch position during the Crouch Fuzzy Guard: it turned out it's 2 frames.
So the complete process from the start of a CFG to when we regain the standing status it's 7 frame (5 from the crouch dash + 2 to get up again).
This was calculated to know for how much time we can avoid high blows during a CFG. (EDIT it's not written here but there are differences from a fully crouch position that makes a grab whiff from a crouch position that avoids high blows)
Instead for a normal Fuzzy Guard (nomal crouch position) you need only 1 frame to regain the standing position meaning the complete standing-to-standing process is 8 (7+1).
UPDATE If you managed to input a 7 frames starting from one frame before you can move again you can avoid grabs and mids that connect at the same exact frame (details in the link provided up)

Next in line was the forward dash cancel in guard.
I found out that you can cancel in the guard after the 3rd frame (you can block from the 4th frame onward).

Then I searched how much frames are needed to be able to guard a mid blow using an ECDG and an EFDG (Evade Forward Dash Guard).

For an ECDG it's 17 frame (you can block a mid attack from the 17th frame).
Knowing that after doing a CD you can recover the standing guard at the 7th frame and that we are in a crouch state in the frames 5 and 6 we get that we'll avoid high attacks and throw in the frames 15 and 16 of our ECDG.
We can also calculate the interesting the frame number from which we can cancel an evade into a crouch dash: it's 10 frames (17-7).
This number will be usefull in a few lines for a cross test too.

For an EFDG the number of frames needed to be able to guard a mid attack it's, surprise surprise, 14 frames (you can block from the 14th frame).
EFDG it's 3 frames faster than the ECDG.
Knowing that a forward dash guard cancel takes a minimum of 4 frames (you can block from the 4th from onward) for a cross test we can calculate the frame number from which we can cancel an evade into a forward dash: it's 10 (14-4), the same number we can cancel an evade in a crouch dash.

For the throw escape part if you do the EFDG/ECDG and input your yutori (EFDGTE/ECDGTE) fast enough (it's like a vanilla ETEG with 2 TEs) you will able to escape any throw (granted you guess right) that will connect during all your EFDG/ECDG.

Again I'm almost 100% sure of what I found but there's room for errors (somthing I missed, execution skills, calculating errors etc).

 

Nice info !!
Some of them were pointed out by noodalls yesterday. Differences between EFDG and ECDG. But some of them are new to me.

Yes EFDG is faster than ECDG to block standing but versus low move ECDG is faster than EFDG because you don't have to wait 2 frames to stand up (according to the result found by noodalls)

Both of you point out the real purpose of Crouch dash and standing dash by the way. Those two techs have good and bad points. Nice to know that and it's logical. Good job SEGA !

 

I heard about this not too long ago and recently started doing it. It's really strong obviously, but not invincible. Throws are not affected because you still have really strong 3-way mix-up against people who do it. Also like people have mentioned before, fully circular and semi-circular lows will counter hit now and destroy this. The only downside is it nerfs the high circular game. To me, high circular was never that good anyway because people just low jab at disadvantage. But yeah, in a situation where you don't have the frames to fuzzy against a throw, but your blocked move was still safe, you should probably be doing this as opposed to ETEG.

ARE technique in VF4 completely eliminated the throw mixup in certain situations which IMO ruins the game, but ECDGTE doesn't. I like that it keeps the game really fast paced.

 

This ^_^

 

Or you should just EFDGTEdG which, while harder to do than ECDGTE, protects you from low circulars as well.

 

Lol you guys with your abbreviations.. Isn't that going a bit too far? Sorry for offtopic post but..

 

You can never go to far to exclude new players. If a seemingly simple technique can't be squeezed in an abbreviation lengthy enough to make it sound difficult and complicated to perform, it's not too good a technique.

 

There is no absolute safe way to evade circular, semi circular and throw escape from a -5 frame disadvantage. BUT!

A technique I use at -8~-10 disadvantage is the old Attack Throw Escape, sometimes i can get it with an up close Jacky 4k+g(-8), it's basically Input move, hit your TE immediately during the last couple frames of your move, quickly press standing punch.

This beats Immediate throw, stops delayed attacks, it's faster than most circluar moves(except lows will CH) and you won't get staggered.

 

DRE,

It's similar to ARE in the sense that you have to delay throw and at that point, in VF4, you would have to be buffering an additional EMTEG very early to escape it which is what the ECDGTE already gives you in FS. Depending upon at what advantage/disadvantage, you use this tech, a seasoned opponent will not likely be throwing straight after blocking a -5 and lower disadvantage move so the lack of forced nitaku there is what makes this technique good.

Also, performing a half circular or delayed launcher is much more riskier in FS. In the former case, you can lose almost half life against the top tier characters if they evade in the correct direction and start a side rebounce combo (add extra damage if you get pummeled into the wall). This is one of the reasons why most characters who didn't have a circular were given a safe one but with the slow execution of high circulars being made useless with this tech and a similar one in R, they face an even tougher time against the characters who have mid circulars, guard breaks and/or low throws. For some characters, the high circular is the only way they can sideturn a character so you can imagine why this tech makes the lower tiers worse at a higher playing level.

We both know that any opponent who is constantly 2p'ing is likely not someone who would use this tech and would be easy to take out if that's their consistent reaction.