Play Wolf (and lose) the Destro way!

i use p,k against a moralist player who knows they have exact elbow advantage but goes for a throw attempt~ or a delay response~ because i also have a choice to guard or evade an exact frame elbow.

why is it poor yomi?~ it bridges the gap inbetween anything other than an exact frame elbow~ it's a garanteed string and gives u +2~

not only is it an anticipated guess (yomi), but you need frame knowlege to start using yomi, because games like nitaku are locked inside a frame range which then inspires you to read it and go beyond it.

i also dont understand what you mean by guaranteed damage, choice games in VF (even played by fames) dont garantee damage unless you are at the right end of the choice game.

if you mean taking garanteed damage in a hit counterable situation, then by all means, its not a choice game, it's your garanteed damage~

 

I think there are two schools of thought. One thinks that since you only win against the throw anyways you might aswell use the biggest thing you have and discourage and punish someone throwing you. The other school wants to use RN but at the lowest risk. 2p is the most common used RN tool after all. Neither is wrong, I think it's more about adopting.

In VF4; If you face someone who uses delayattacks (or backdash attack / ciruclars / just waits) a lot and likes to throw in even very small diss I'd go more towards small rn. If the other player throws more when I'm say -6 (where I'll get MC'd whatever he does) and doesn't delay a lot I'd go more for heavy things if I choose to RN. Personally I like to RN big probably to much. How does all of this change in VF5 though?

Well first of all only certain moves will avoid the clash so you are probably leaning more towards using bigger RN gameplay wise. However, 2p is now +7 on MC which means that if you catch someone delaying attacks on you you'll have very strong nitaku afterwards (they can't duck throws when you're +7 and you can threathen with our biggest launchers often).

If you catch an actual throw attempt though with 2p you'll "only" be +4 which means that they can fuzzy your throwattempt afterwards which is interesting. So against delayattacks and so on 2p / smallattacks might be good but versus throws (which they'll hit mC) they are not as strong as in VF4 cause you get no nitaku. Another thing is that you'll probably be fuzzying more and to a higher dissadvantage of yourself (up to -6) so using small attacks to limit of your opponent, say "I'll do a 2p cause he can *only* do an elbow then to win" will probably become a mute point. Delaying attacks to catch evaders seems much harder now as well. I think time will show more big RN (and moves with special properties) and more fuzzy in VF5 as a result of all of this. But then again, if someone expects fuzzy as a choice defence of his opponent in certain dissadvantages delaythrows and so on becomes cool again - isn't VF fun?

 

like i said before
frames is just the groundwork

frames lets you actually play VF
Yomi is what wins in VF.

Thats why yomi > frames.

i bet you do more damage, especially as a wolf player, using yomi rather than frames.

 

and what im saying is~ if you only play a game of outguessing
you can also lose because you are leaving yourself open in exact frame situations like nitaku. sometimes it's better to *just take the +6 knee* because then you'd beat the guy who just tried reverse nitaku. and therefore you've earned a huge amount of damage. this wasnt yomi, this was your entitlement to strike with knee instead of a weaker move.

if frames are a book of rules, then use it~ to determine why things didnt work and what things would work instead~ believe it or not, frames are your game. and if it isnt,, then your game is vonerable to frames.

and as i* said before, yomi is an act of framework.

in which case

yomi > frames
frames > yomi

 

i think you're missing my point completely, I brought this discussion up because im tired of players like Kiwe who preach Pencil and Paper VF. We both seem to agree frames is merely fundamentals, and yomi is what win games, but when i see arguments based on wolfs 6p,p no delay it really irritates me. Not only will we not see this move used in tournament play, someone new coming to learn the game will read this thread and interpret it as a good poke move with guaranteed damage no delay. I know for certain a wolf player in socal used to use this move quite frequently until he repetitively suffered the consquences the hard way and we had to tell him literally to stop using that move. I just hate to see a new player believe VF is frames > yomi because so many other fighting games can be played that way (especially tekken 4 and DOA 3.0, even to an extent tekken DR with devil jin.)

 

You seem highly confused PhoenixtDth. I wasn't the one saying you should/could use Wolf's 6pp as a minorcounter tool Srider was. I was just saying that it does combo on mC in VF4 as well, which is an undeniable fact and since Srider said he didn't think it did, and Shang ridiculed me for saying it did (surprise), I gave measures for showing that it does.

So quit the bs. I'm not going to even adress the "preach pencil and paper VF" cause it all boils down in missconceptions of me in not having played any versus etc (I could name 30 people) from clueless people which I can't be bothered with and people like you who get annoyed by me just posting anything. I like little facts about VF like wolf 6pp in mC giving him +1 and guaranteeing 6pp while normalhit he's -2 in VF4. So sue me. That doesn't change that you obviously know nothing about how I play VF. I like doing evade>attack a lot in VF4 for instance (everybody who's played me knows this) which isn't exactly a "pencil and paper" solution when there is ETEG. I'm as abare as they come. The entire yomi vs frames debate is futile, imo character dependent amongst other things, and should have ended here with BK's first post; they complement eachother. It's a major derail in this thread about Wolf. If you think there's no point in discussing frames or move properties cause you have to think outside the box and it becomes inferior to superior yomi gtfo. Let those who want to discuss, and improve their game thinking it does help them, do so.

Look, I've also had extreme troubles here in Swe with new players thinking VF is to framebased and bound by laws for optimal solutions in all situations and understand your pain. A new player (Omed), who is one of the greatest 3s players there is in Europe, might have been lost over an argument on this point. ETE and optionselects and fuzzy seems magical until players on their own start understanding delayattacks and similar points. New players need to motivate themselves to get to that level where frames become a more fuzzy border and there's nothing you can say to help them. Ignoring frames isn't the answer. I'd still recommend new players to learn gauranteed damage asap in VF which is, in fact, pencil and paper VF. Only by knowing the rules you can bend them in an intelligent manner and we all know how far you come with mashing in VF.

 

I remember my first evo combo, wolf major counter knee /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif good times /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

At every level yomi is there, with more and more knowledge of the frame system it can only help the yomi games between 2 equal'ish players,
of course if an opponent has more frame knowledge than you, having higher than average yomi will help you, and the point I'm getting at why limit your game?
2 people of around equal frame knowledge, best yomi wins,
2 people of around equal yomi knowledge, best frame's win. (mostly ;P)
Yomi pwns though in my opinion /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif
It's not about being abare or moralist, but the ability to pick and choose between these styles, frame knowledge in this case also helps you /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

edit: actually "2 people of around equal yomi knowledge, best frame's win",
I'm just using that in a context of nitaku and % poking play for example, not in balls out yomi flow ;P
Anyways learn both!

 

dude even at one time your sig was preaching pencil and paper vf, and now you call it a misconception? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif anyways for what use should 6p,p no delay even be considered in discussion. You're just confusing people new to the game at best.

 

Funny. I had no idea the original shoutbox comment (something like "what a great idea, basing your wolf on 4p & pickup) was sarcastic in the first place. First off, you get a knockdown & advantage...not just advantage really, but that psychological "I am controlling you" stuff that Wolf especially (read, more than ANY OTHER CHARACTER) can use for giant heaps of life bar. Clearly Destro needs to round out his game some (who here doesn't?) but there are worse places to start than quick knockdowns & control.

Play frame tight, make the choices clear to your opponent & make him feel like he's always wrong.

 

Hey, I said the NEW 6P P+K in VF5 makes 6P more useful than VF4. In VF4 is was not useable 99% of the time. I do NOT condone the use of 6PP in VF4 or VF5. In VF5 it's kind of useful due to the range game that VF5 Wolf can play since 4K has a seemingly much shorter range compared to FT.

 

i am begining to understand your reasons for your post.

but i think the most confusion is this~

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We both seem to agree frames is merely fundamentals, and yomi is what win games, but when i see arguments based on wolfs 6p,p no delay it really irritates me. Not only will we not see this move used in tournament play</div></div>

when somebody tells you "fp,p is a garanteed string"~ why would it irritate u?~ what irritates me is the same group of people that come to this forum preach to specific people that they know nothing, they suck, and to stop posting o__o~ when this is a correct peice of information, and "wolf cant do sh*t" isnt.

not only this, but so many "veteran experienced" players here just seem to watch tournament vids, worship japanese players, forget everything else, and stay mediocre. If frames and specific details of a move are in a "book of rules" then you read it, and use knowlege to experiment and create your own unflawed unbroken stategics, "what ifs" and pre-trained situations.

if you can utilize a garanteed string like this, as i specifically said earlier "after you thrown your opponent with db+p+g to the end of the ring.- and they try to jab out of the backturned position, they eat a 15 frame string for a ringout" since any other option would be slower and wouldnt ring out.

yomi is not an entire game plan, it's an occasional risk to take when you know your opponent has trapped you in a state of exact frame choice games,- and frames in the first place are the only thing which make you opt for yomi, orelse pre-guessing a broken choice game is useless, sometimes it isnt even yomi, but purely a choice out of 2 or few choices. i think the word yomi here has been stretched too far~ for example, a more suited show of yomi would to be low throwing a fuzzy guarder after they low P~ something totally unexpected and irrationalized, yet it shows example that you know your situation better than / just as well as your opponent and create a forward-thinking alternative.

frames are what garantees that your yomi is unflawed, and it isnt merely fundamentals, it's the power within your attack game and counterattack game which forces opponents into thinking beyond it, and risking something which could end up giving them some supreme damage.

and more importantly if wolf players are preaching that you simply cant create a surface game plan using frame and knowlege is far from a subsitute of giving correct information about an underused move command.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Play frame tight, make the choices clear to your opponent & make him feel like he's always wrong.</div></div>

well said. - you can only start to throw out yomi once you've contidioned your opponent into limiting their choices with tight frame barriers.

 

as the og Socal WOLF player all I have to say is...


SO WHAT!!! I will ring you out

 

Umm okay so the basic idea is you need to play Wolf with a lot of yomi skill. From what I can see it's loads better than what I was used too with Grappling characters in the other game I play. I still can't believe Wolf has a throw that does 80 dmg guaranteed (100 if you hit a wall) with high possiblity of ring out. Then he gets 2 other throws that do what 70-75 as well!? So some of his combo starts are unsafe and his poking game isn't great, SO WHAT!? They better be unsafe, and he better not have as many good pokes as sarah or akira.

I still cannot believe the made the knee +1 on hit, that's like my favorite combo start, and I always thought they made it disadvantage on hit to make up for the fact that if you MC the thing you basically have a 70 dmg combo for a fairly fast knee. Maybe I just don't have enough experience to really tell, but from my experience with other fighting games, grapplers in this game are pretty damn good.

 

And don't forget about /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif! Awesome poking tool. I don't feel sorry for any Wolf players.

 

I love 4K+G... btw off topic... does anyone know if this is available in the PS3 version?



I really want it T.T

 

Holy shit... it's Jagi!
(frog'd?)

 

I have no idea if this is guarenteed on Jeffry or Wolf, but this juggle looks more stable than the one ending with P, K.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL9ZnyQTVOI (01:43)!

 

yeah, it's techrollable twice, and it's been listed

nice combo

 

It should be available. It's rank-specific though. As is his belt, and his second "suntan" if I remember correctly.


A few things I've picked up over my recent tour of Tokyo, and many, many VF5 matches (now about 430 - 925 or so):

-Yomi, yomi, yomi.
-If having bad yomi, play possum and try for a ring out with poke-throws or CH juggles.
-use CH /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif often, and if you don't expect throw escapes, use /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif into crouch throw. Not much else guaranteed, but I still use the pick up and I have very little problem with it. Once my opponent starts trying to hit or crouch me out of it I use the toe kick stunner or the short shoulder to make him rethink his strategy, and if he attempts an evade, usually I can still catch the throw.

Thoughts?