options after PK hit

How is this different from any other +4 situation? Aside from knowing as soon as you start to PK what your frame adv will be, I suppose.

Unlike DM, OM is entirely dependent on 3d collision detection, there are no strict properties to it whatsoever. You might as well replace every instance of "OM" with "spacing" in the above discussion.

 

Yes, all +4 situations are the same... I recently had a message exchange with 2 different new players on XBL about the subject and just felt like fleshing out the options with their advantages/disadvantages. Most vets here take this stuff for granted... this has been basically the same since VF2.1.

Re: sabaki and non throw clash attacks
Sabaki's are specific to each character, and this was really a very general summary covering all characters. One of the reasons why I used question marks. If someone wants to list specific sabakis and how they succeed after getting hit by PK, go for it.

Non throw clash attacks would only affect the PK -> throw section, right?


I plan on doing this same thing specifically for Sarah, as well as one for her /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif combo, which leaves her at +5 on hit. That 1 extra frame (plus the victim is left side turned) is a huge difference/advantage.

 

P,K = unvariable +4, locked distance/hit collision.

i'd say keep it simple.

1) elbow
2) dash throw (fuzzy's worst nightmare)
3) delay hit

sweep is really alittle risky here if they are generally good at fuzzying.

 

yep, elbow is the best option, but if you're confident your opponent is going to low punch (which elbow beats) or evade (which elbow loses to) there may be more exciting options.

Sweep beats DM and high punch. Sweep does little damage for the risk.
Throw beats DM (maybe not evade-throw escape) and loses to return attacks.

I really love powning low punchers by hopping the low punch. Some great combos are possible, and the PK set up is so easy to hit check. This is where I'm going with this...

 

yeah, high/low crush are good tools. i would generally use them for say -2 to +2 where the choices are broken. if i setup my own +4 though, i'd play it strict. mabye it's my playstyle, lol.

reason why i said 3 options is because the more i put into it, the more options my opponent gets.

if i want to pressure the opponent,i put them into a pattern where they are pulling off instant commands and flawless fuzzying.

the 3rd option is where i would throw them off with an ill-timed attack. if i backdash launcher, i would beat short ranged attacks (low P), DM and sabakis at the least.

rock-paper-scizzors is tight when it's a prisim /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

Well, if this thread was about generic things to do after PK hit, I think we got all those covered.

I don't want to bitch but.. please show me how to do Akiras sweep.

So the thread wasnt about generic responses from the beginning...next thing to write about would be to move to character-specific responses. That would make more sense.

 

fine, do as you like at the end of the day-

just my two cents.

 

Sorry BK_ , I responded to wrong message, I didnt mean to say badly at you.

I meant to respond to yupa and his
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sabaki's are specific to each character, and this was really a very general summary covering all characters.</div></div>

 

my bad -

 

no problem Manjimaru... I just didn't feel like redoing it at this time. I don't have the patience to go thru the movelists and double chk sabaki stats.

Oops, I hadn't realized that Akira has no low circular attack... I had thought his low backfist was at least half circular, but I just double chked. Akira doesn't have that option. Sux for him.

 

I'm not completely sure what you're saying. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is a two hit series, so you have ample time to react to your disadvantage IMO. It's those sudden moves that hit you giving your opponents the advantage that you make you go, "Crap! Better defend fast!" that apply the kind of pressure that you're talking about. I think that fuzzy guarding while ducking in time again to block the sweep is possible to do consistently in the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif situation. I just think of it as looking for a sweep specifically while fuzzy guarding in the meantime. Again, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif has a long enough execution to allow me to get my head together to allow me to do this. Feck was saying that it is hard to do online because of the lag. Your inputs are read late, so you would be fuzzy guarding later than usual screwing your whole timing up.

I don't think that your example with Lion's sweeps was valid. Lion's sweeps probably won't occur in a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif situation since he is at -4. I don't see why you would fuzzy guard at an advantage. Lion's sweeps connect a lot in the situation where both players are in open ground, so frames don't factor in too much. He has a mid hitting variant that looks similar too.

Please correct me if I was way off in what you were saying.

 

Please note that Yupa's list only concerns characters that are at +4 after their /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif connects.

<u>That said</u>, in VF5 here's only 3 characters with a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif string . The last hit is not a natural combo but on the other hand its a highly delayable special high, which means it can bait and beat lots of retaliations.

Lion is one of those. He is also the only character that's left at -4 after his /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif hits. However his followup punch is -3 on block and +6 on CH. Alternatively the lion player can input /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif to enter kanpo stance. Remember, Kanpo /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif will beat punches and elbows. So the -4 on block is kind of deceptive as Lion still has the initiative.

OS vanessa's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is +3 on hit. Thus the strategies discussed in this thread do not always apply. On the other hand, her followup /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, wow, one of my favorite moves, +8 on CH.

Jeffry's is the only one who has both a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif string and a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif that leaves him at +4. Unfortunately his followup /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is -10 on block and only gives him +2 on CH. Since Jeffry has far stronger (and safer) options in the form of his 14f exe /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif IMHO a jeffry player is beter of sticking to Yupa's flowchart.

<u>In VF5R</u> goh has gained a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif string too, and it looks strong, leading to a hit throw on CH!

<u>For the record</u> goh, kage, lau, pai can enter a stance after /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and shun can enter a stance too but apparently his /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif knocks down so i don't think the followup kick is guaranteed.

 

erdraug, I get it. I'm just saying that you have time to react in making an advanced defensive manuever after /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif. Of course, some characters have options to beat it.

EDIT: I admit that I didn't do a good job of explaining why Lion's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif situation is different, though.

 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In VF5R goh has gained a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gifstring too, and it looks strong, leading to a hit throw on CH! </div></div>
It should work on normal hit too. Also the last hit is a normal high in this one.

 

Things change when you and your opponent know how and consistently beat fuzzy guard.

 

This sounds awfully like Theory Fighter Slide, I thought you was one of those anti Theory Fighter guys.

I never seen players that are good enough to constantly beat every attempt at fuzzy guard their opponent makes. Not even in Jap vids of the top players...

and if there were players that are that crazy, then they could probably consistently beat and punish their opponents attempt at beating their fuzzy guard, at every opportunity at which a beat is made.

 

What? fuzzy guard getting beat happens all the time by everyone.

Which happens by opponents using lows and 0f throws.

EDIT: there are even strings widely used that beat fuzzy guard, so seriously what are you talking about theory?

 

The part I already quoted in my last post, it's possible theoretically but I never see anyone doing it.

Yah fuzzy guard can be beaten easily, same with anything in VF but unless your opponent is spamming the same thing over and over I find it hard to believe it's possible to do consistently.

 

We must be watching two different games. Fuzzy is super super super strong in VF5, but so is 0f.

 

I wasn't talking about how effective the technique was. I was just trying to say that it is very possible to pull off in the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif situation. Get hit by something like Akira's DE and you'll have less time to react. That's where the technique is less likely to occur.