Options after knockdown

If 46P+K is evaded you eat a combo.

But only K+G will stop evades irregardless of timing of TR. Do you not understand the argument? I am not saying K+G is great, I am saying that if they evade, it will be a guaranteed hit, while 46P+K is not. That is why a star player Aoi uses it instead of 46P+K.

And by the way, the K+G has 5 active frames, that is more than any other move I know, it is thus optimal to use as a meaty attack.

And just so you know, the original purpose of a meaty attack is to decrease the risk afterwards (that is how it is often used in 2D games). If you are going to do a 2K+G vs a rising opponent, you should use meaty timing to reduce risk. That is one of the reasons meaty makes perfect sense for circular moves.


EDIT: OK, let me clarify again. If you think the opponent will duck or attack, 46P+K is safer and obviously better, I am talking about the assumption that the opponent will evade. If you believe he will evade then K+G is the better option.

 

NO.
You said it yourself:

Let's say the Aoi player is a bit late in his meaty timing and that allows the opponnent to escape, let's say he is 4 frames too late (which is BAD timming).

46 P+K is 49 frames total and has a startup of 23 frames
Opponent's escape takes 23 frames to recover.

Basicaly a meaty too late by 4 frames is like a +19 in this case, (perfect meaty=+23 aka the full startup of 46P+K has expired the moment the opponent is able to move)

so 49 (total frames) -19 (frames already expired) -23 (evade duration)= +7

So the opponent will be at +7 = NO COMBO.

Also there are plenty of moves that are 4, 5 frames or even more and a few of them are mid and give a combo.

I guess Japaneese players do use them more than high full circular on TR simply because it's hard to determine if you have exact TR or not (even then the timing can be made to beat exact TR), AND even if you miss you are safe from a big punish. BTW character weight is more a pbm than exact TR imo.

 

lol at 46P+K evaded = combo...
And meaty options is interesting when some particular moves what are non circular at all become unevadable on techrolling opponent. Because you know, the circular ones already cover evade, meaty or not.
Unless K+G is mid, no, it's not the best option.Yes, you didn't said it was great, you come here and state that's it's probably the best option, should I quote your post ?

Decrease the risk afterwards, the purpose of meaty ? On paper, 46P+K is still safer than K+G because it's mid.
And not because Kakuribon used it during one particular tournament means anything, I 'm sure you saw plenty of matches where he used 46P+K or 66P+K instead.

Think about it, if you think opponent are going to evade after tech roll, K+G is like going for a throw: it connects whether the tech is exact or not. If ducked, you get killed.
You need to use 46P+K or 66P+K until he never wants to duck on wake up.

 

How does it work when you use a full circular move ?
From my tests, it stills CH but with more advantage

 

Nope you can't get CH in these situations since all you can do is hold G, if you're getting a yellow flash then the attack wasn't meaty.

 

I did not do the math on the punish thing and you are absolutely right. Then I guess it kind of explains why good players actually use it since +7 is no big deal.

Although, I am not sure you could not get a bigger advantage, the timing of the TR could allow you to evade earlier during their startup (and that is true even if the Aoi player times her 46P+K perfectly).

Either way, given how often 46P+K works for japanese players, I am likely wrong about my initial assumption anyway (that the timing changes significantly depending on exact/non exact TR).

 

Well, I'm assuming a full slow circular like Aoi's K+G with +6 on NH can't be really considered meaty... its purpose is to hit evaders, like any regular circular.

So when madone says that K+G on meaty gives +12 ( regular K+G gives +9 on CH ), is it really meaty since it needs the CH factor ( and so, to hit an evade )to have all that advantage ? Hmmmm...
Unless madone is saying that it is possible to get K+G on NH with +12 on meaty ? I highly doubt it.

Just so you know madone, the concept of meaty ( at least in VF ) is to leave the opponent with no other choice than guard on wake up.
K+G fails in this category because you can be low punched out of it, or even crushed by tech crouch move.

 

wow very complicated moves u all have! i will try!

for me i will just watch for the reaction of my opponent if he likes to do any rising kick mid or low just go for the ff+K and combo.

after getting hit a few times they will most probably be hitting guard after their TR, so its into the throw guessing game.

they might also be doing an evade or evade throw escape guard after their TR so d+K+G will be a sure hit.

these moves although not alot of damage but pressures yr opponent into a constant guessing game.

my 2 cents from a noob aoi here.

 

The purpose of thoses meaty moves is to make your opponent hold G after tech or stop techrolling, so that you can throw or get extra hit on the ground.
If you wait for the reaction, somehow you lost advantage.

 

Found some new meaties with P+K and 46P!P+G after a 2K+G CH.
I even managed to get +7 with P+K on meaty, which means low throw attempt if the opponent just hold G. ( since P+K forces crouch on hit )
The best I could do was, from open stance, opponent side roll to the back, P+K side hit on meaty: +9 !
I will probably open a new thread with Aoi meaties & oki, before I copy paste it to the wiki