Opinion: Where Do Fighting Games Go From Here?

What is your name on srk? Do you have an account there, and why don't you post your opinions to Sirlin there?

There's a big thread on this subject right now: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=177370

It's kind of like you're hiding a lil bit posting that on here, where he(Sirlin) would rarely check, probably if someone he knew linked it to him.

Agreed.

 

To be fair, Sirlin has written an entire book on playing competitive fighting games. He's also worked on Street Fighter II twice including building his own version (HDR) and he's a tournament level player for many fighting games. The fact that he has such a reputation is why we are debating his words in this thread. Sirlin is not just some other idiot and if he was you wouldn't be discussing him in this thread.

I don't understand this? Study what they don't do?

Here's a match analysis video of a Vega player defeating a Zangief player using some of the highest possible level play in Super Turbo that I've ever seen. The person who made the video, Giga aka Zazza, is a top level player but when he first watched the video he admitted he couldn't even understand at first what was going on. You can't just watch a match video and learn anything from it, even the best players sometimes have trouble analyzing matches based on videos. Jodim, a Zangief player (#1 on HDR on XBL I think) pointed it out to Giga after he noticed how ridiculous Taira's game play was in this match.

I know during the VF4EVO era some users on this site (Creed) made stop analysis videos of matches where they would show a player throw out a move, pause the match, and analyze the options that both players and had and why they chose those next moves.

SRK is flooded right now as usual. I have yet to renew my premium status so the site is down for me every time I try to access it. Even then, the SRK thread is filled with scrubs spamming their uninformed opinions (as usual) and old-hands not rationally or objectively critiquing the new SFIV game because it's SF/Capcom.

And Sirlin doesn't need anymore grief from SRK, the flak from HDR being awful was already enough but I guess Sirlin wants the attention as he wrote a giant blog entry about SFIV.

 

I know fine well what merits go along with his words but I stand by what I said. He is the poster boy elitist of the fighting game community. I can't take him seriously.

When I say to watch what they don't do I mean just that. I'll use VF5 as an example here as we're all familiar with it.

Someone who wants to learn Akira watches some videos of homestay and learns some juggles.

They then play some games and can't get these combos in because they are going about the set up all wrong.

There's a good reason certain moves rarely get used. You'll never see them in high level play. A top level Kage player isn't going to use 8P+K in a competetive match (unless he's off his tits). Obviously I'm saying this applies to a completely green player. No one actually uses 8P+K....Right?

Sorry if I'm not being clear it's really early and I haven't slept yet.

 

Who are you on srk though? I'm just wondering. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

 

that's a very specific and situational example, though it doesn't invalidate your point. however, i'd like to get into a bit of detail briefly about how option select can actually make a game harder and less forgiving for dumb players.

in guilty gear, the command for throws is 6H or 4H (depending on which direction you want to throw). but, those commands only come out as throws when you're within a certain range (which does in turn result in option select).

the other thing about guilty gear is that nearly every character (if not, every character) has throw invincible moves (that are usually quick to come out and quick to recover).

so to put this in perspective, let me tell you about something that happened to me back in my scrubbier days of guilty gear. i was playing johnny against an eddie player (for those of you who don't play guilty gear, eddie does this) and i was going for wakeup throws all the effing time. but, every time i did, he would punish with a throw invincible move and end up destroying me for free on wakeup. this was regardless of whether my 6H came out as a throw (in which case, i'm hit) or if it came out as the slow, damaging move that 6H is outside of throw range (in which case, he would just counter hit me and actually end up doing more damage than he would have otherwise).

just one (common) example of how option select can be used to make games less forgiving to mashers and people who use shitty scrub tactics.

 

Exactly. Option select is not smart in my opinion. I always felt that it was more like bug or a glitch that allowed that to happen in VF2. Its much better idea to make the options simple and clearcut and make the players play by the options, actually use teh yomi. Techniques that defeat several or opponents options at the same time need to be put into the game carefully. However, having them around makes the game interesting in the long run. Key is not having too many of them. Today VF has fuzzy guard and ETEG and both have their weaknesses, VF4 had ARE and so on. Having option select back would change those techniques drastically and make for a wholly different tactical game. I like VF as it is.

As for input difficulty, I dont believe the key to get more casual players is 'dumbing down the game'. Some people are competitive and most are not. That is a rule of nature. In order to enjoy fighting games you have to enjoy competitiveness.

What is important in my opinion is to make it easy for new players to get INTO the game. Have something simple that they can do and still manage to win somebody. This is possible without dumbing the whole game down, there can still be expert stuff in the game. This is where VF has done well in my opinion, you can have pretty limited technical skills, but still win matches with timing, distance control and yomi. However, this hasnt helped VF to get more popular.

That brings me to the second issue, the game simply needs to be more 'flashy' to make casual players interested. I remember lots of people on these boards used to argue that flashiness is unessential and vf doesnt need it, but fact is that casual players do.


-- I will continue later when I feel better, currently running a high fever

 

I think what you mentioned is why VF is unpopular. The SRK heads mostly want to spam a top tier char and win, not think. Yeah, the elites on SRK aren't like that, but the ones below them are.

Ultimately, I expect fighting games to go more towards GG, which will drive me away from the communitty. I'm kinda afraid of how VF6 will turn out since I think Sega will infect it with some ridiculous crap from its competitors.

 

Just wondering... What's with the hate on GG?

 

people tend to think that guilty gear is the same game it was in 2002. that or they just suck at it.

and actually, arstal is right in saying that the entire genre is trying to replicate accent core now. though slash was popular, accent core brought the series' reputation to a whole new level, and that's why most fighters that have come out since (2d and 3d alike) have taken cues from it.

i tend to joke about how vf5:r is basically accent core in 3d. while i know this isn't exactly the truth, it's hard to deny accent core's overarching influence on the genre, which is particularly abundant in vf5:r (and, to the dismay of capcommunists the world over, street fighter iv).

some people bitch about vf5:r having combos that do too much damage (while conveniently ignoring that most of these combos are both situational and able to be escaped from)- something the guilty gear community went through back when accent core first came out. the way some people here also bitch about how speeding up the game and making the focus more on combos than on zoning and pokes is also a carbon copy of the complaints of the guilty gear community in the early days of accent core.

over time though, the community came to see the game for what it is; a significant improvement over slash and quite arguably the single most balanced 2d fighter to date. it's easy to look at videos like the one in my last post and scream "lol faggot ass loli fighter with crazy combos", but you don't actually know what's going on in the game- if you did, you would know that things like that are a one in a million kind of thing (and actually, that video in my last post is the only example of an instant kill being used in high level play i've seen).

if you haven't invested the interest or time to play accent core but feel the need to rag on it anyways, you're really just making yourself seem ignorant. it's one thing to dislike <s>shit fighters like tekken</s> games you don't play, but it's another thing entirely to say that said game is easy or dare i say, casual- especially if you haven't spent a significant amount of time with said game.

(on an eerie note, that guy lives in the exact same city as me. i almost want to find where he lives and give him a long lecture on why he's wrong.)

 

Word, I'm wondering that myself. GG is a great series. Did alot of great things for the genre.

 

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

 

You could learn a lot from a dummy. Some of my best shit came from observing all. So go head and keep posting you youtube vids so i can grappler Baki your shit. Last i check in Football you watch game footage to be prepared.

Coming from you Seidon you should know better.

As far as Sirlin go i didn't like him all that much but after listening to him and obsverving him he know his shit and i respect him.VF ain't flawless Just like many other games but we love them. IF sirlin dedicated himself to VF he'd be pretty good because he has good knowledge of battle.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> He's notoriously hard to use but very powerful </div></div>
He supposed to be that way. But unlike many others Its very rewarding to learn him.


As far as Sirlin post goes in play to win. Thats good for tournaments and shit because its all about winning no matter what.Other tourney level players do the same shit with these exploits to win. Growing up in Brooklyn playing streetfighter in some of the grimiest spots a throw cheese was the worst shit you can do to a person. You could get stomped out or your face sliced against dudes who were just causal gaming and you tried to show them up.Amongst the circles i played in we were combo maniacs and throwing was frown upon (dudes will often tell you to get you throw back.)I mean there was a yomi game but we just love the thrill of going back forth till someone messup or whiffed.
Oh well with the inclusion of the internet infomation highway that level of play was going to be the normal online because in Ranks matches you play to with. Believe it or not we also play VF4 and Evo like this in Dabadseeds crib. throw where rear until we played 5 and realized that throw were the key lol!

 

Would be interesting to see. I suspect it might take him a long time to learn though.

I agree that Sirlin knows his stuff and he is very passionate about it but that doesnt mean he is right in everything. I agree with him on certain issues and disagree with him on others.