Opinion: Where Do Fighting Games Go From Here?

Exactly right. GoatCheeseBlues described this scenario to me at the office sometime in the last couple months. It would be fantastic to get this and everything else a complete training could offer.

 

Didn't VF4 (or Evo, can't remember) have stat tracking like that? I remember something like a percentage of how many times your /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gifthrow was successful or how many times you've broken a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gifthrow and stuff like that.

 

There was something like that in there yeah, I don't remember how detailed it was though.

 

Sirlin also took a indirect shot At VF by saying fighting games shouldnt need a button press to jump.

 

lol. "up" is a button press.

 

Id like an explanation on that, after all, button press reduces chances of accidental hops, and propably allows for slightly faster sidestepping. Its all the better for me.

 

yes, VF4evo had that. In quest mode at least.

 

That's probably down to preference.

Maybe from his point of view, holding 7_8_9 is better than having a button press because of better intuition maybe. After all, you'd still have tapping 8 to sidestep, and 88 added to sidewalk, right?

Or maybe his problem with button pressing to jump in VF is specifically towards the fact that it's 8P/8K instead of it being say 8G. Which makes sense.

 

Sirlin also said that option select is smarter than a two button or commitment based throw system. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif

So Sirlin wants SFIV not to be like itself but to be like other games. This was the same tired argument when SFIII came out. "Why isn't the game play more like the previous in the series"? or "How come my old strategies are failing me in the new SF game"?

Because....it's a different game.

Why doesn't VF4 have the E button? Why introduce 0 frame throws and DM/OM in VF5? Because they are different games with different mechanics and systems in them.

SFIV is not ST and SFIII and definitely not Guilty Gear. Get over it and learn to adapt.

I can't believe Sirlin is complaining that GG and ST tactics don't work in SFIV.

First off the argument that 2D and 3D games can't share the same throw mechanics is retarded.

Sirlin wants the game to be more forgiving for stupid players. He wants option select. Meaning you can press one button for both throw and attack, and you don't have to commit to either one, and the game will automatically choose which one works for you. Just look at the video link at how ridiculously stupid option select is.

Throw whiffs punish stupidity as they force the player to commit to throwing. So if you throw at the wrong time, it leaves you open for punishment. Sounds simple enough to me.

If you want to reduce button presses why play a SF game that has six buttons? Switch to a 2D game with four like Blazblue, or hell, why not play VF which has a whopping and intimidating 3 buttons (but VF is 3D though)?

Kara-throws are not a problem in SFIV. They are a mechanic. Capcom knew it was including kara throws in SFIV and this time it was intentional unlike SFIII.

Combos, block stun, and reversals were not acknowledged to initially have any competitive depth to them by Capcom and they were merely programming byproducts for SF2. Eventually Capcom recognized the mechanics that they have inadvertently put into the game and made them officially recognized and started building strategies and moves around them. In new challengers you got a reversal message and they gave characters moves that greatly incorporated negative edge in them (Fei Long's flame kick, and Hawk's command throw).

Capcom in SF2 initially thought that the timing on combos was so strict that people wouldn't incorporate them into average play.

Again Sirlin is punishing players who practice commands and have dexterity, saying that SFIV should be scrub friendly input wise. If you can't learn to kara throw then you don't play a character who relies on extending his or her throw range. He wants the games move list to be approachable for everyone right out of the box.

Fact is that Sirlin is complaining that SFIV isn't like ST and GG.

Everything else he's spot on about. Absurd matchmaking system online. Locking characters. And of course the button mapping option system is archaic. But the game play complaints and comparisons to other SF games is getting out of control.

 

Well, that particular article is so biased I can't get into it.

Sirlin did OK with HD-remix but he made A LOT of mistakes as well. If Sirlin got his hands on VF, I doubt any of us would ever play again, he'd just make it "accessible" aka dumbed down. I think the changes he'd make would make the game worse.

He wants the games he plays to devoid of dexterous skill and involving only Yomi or "guessing." Otherwise he "can't get to the Yomi." If that's how he feels, he should have been a poker player not an SF pro... I see move inputs as integral to fighting games as we know them, without them they would be worse.

In a real fight for example, you can train but you will still lose if you cant EXECUTE your strategy. Same thing in VF or SF. You can have all the grandiose ideas in the world but part of the skill is being able to DO it. Taking those types of inputs out would further remove fighting games from a true analog of fighting.

If fighters had always been easy, casual games, I don't think sites like SRK or VFDC would even exist. What would be the point in talking strategy or giving advice on a really simple game? There wouldn't really be a point.

Yeah, some of our conversations are carried out in advanced VF terms or acronyms but if you don't want to penetrate that layer you probably don't care enough to bother. The people here wanted to be better at the extremely deep and advanced game of VF and studied and learned and traveled to do so. They have put in the dedication.

Larry Bird used to practice his basketball game for 3-4 hours every day, sun, rain or snow. If it was "easy" to do that and become a pro basketball player, Larry Legend wouldn't be so much of a legend anymore. People respect those that take the time and supreme effort it takes to be the best at something that requires a lot of skill. When your Grandmother beats your pants off in Wii golf, she's not a legend. It doesn't take any skill so who cares.

Plague, if you hit me with Standing Palm> P > Dbl Palm, then I know you put the time in to be able to do that. If it was easy, it wouldn't be impressive, I wouldn't care. But it is hard, so I do respect it very much.

Even if Sirlin did win some SF tournament using only "low strong" I have NO RESPECT for that cheese either...

Sirlin doesn't want to have to play to win, he just wants to make a few good guesses and come out on top, no effort required.

 

I see what you mean, and I'm OK with VF being complicated, especially Akira's inputs. I'd need to read Sirlin's article again, and I recall reading about complex inputs for stuff that needs to be executed more often than not.

 

No, there'd still be here. Just more on the fanservice than the strategy, that's all.

 

Part of me feels like Akira isn't Akira without the difficult execution. That's part of what makes him so legendary!!! He's notoriously hard to use but very powerful if you really learn. Akira players will always get recognition for that from their fellow players.

I also feel like Sirlin takes a lot of shots at VF and that's part of what has turned me off.

One of the comments left on the end of that article basically said: "I know right Sirlin??? If VF5 was released by any other name it would have been rated a 5/10 instead of a 10/10."

That just pisses me off! You got these idiots on there backing up Sirlin's opinion with what I consider to be garbage but pretending they are very knowledgeable...

 

True, I always found two-button throw better than option-select throw since it is unambiguous, strategical and punishable. I remember that VF also had option-select throw/reversal mechanic in the beginning but it was changed in VF3, players' response was probably similar to Sirlin's. But complaining about it 2009, after discovering and acknowledging the purpose behind it, is just...

 

That's why you need to read his book (or, maybe read his book again if you already have). Pay specific attention to this page.

I advanced at Evo2k4 by killing a guy with P-Throw. He was SO PISSED that he dissed me for it afterwards. My thoughts? "Dude, this is a tournament. This tactic worked on you - over and over. Why should I stop using it? The fight look too ugly? Did I not win with style and so you're mad?"

I was eliminated from the Evo2k7 finals because I could not stop trying to throw KTallGuy's Vanessa after he TR'd. I'd go in for a throw every time and he'd just get up and attack me. Props to him for the smart win.

If Low Strong x 23123 = win (because the way to win is to deplete the other person's lifebar), what else do you want? Style? OK, then, beat Sirlin's Low Strong with style.

 

While Sirlin does take shots at VF at times, he also praises the game as the prime example of a fighting game where Yomi prevails.

He disagrees with some of the game's design and that's fine. I disagree with his critic of the difficulty of the executions. I understand his point that it does provide a wall before you get to the "real" game = yomi. But I think that wall is a good thing. I also think that there are easy to learn characters for VF for those who want to bypass this "wall."

 

I dunno... the hard moves he has/had don't really justify his difficulty:

One frame knee is unsafe, and does less damage than 33P.

26PP doesn't have much justification for being JF.

Personally, I think the only justifiable "hard" move in his "difficulty" repertoire is his DP. But I'd be happy to be proven wrong on the other two moves.

 

That's what I DEFINE scrubby as. Playing to win, at any cost, is true scrubbery. Even if it was a powerful tactic, I could never bring myself to reducing a game I enjoy to only jumping around and pressing one button.

For example, when people watch vids of VF5 to learn techniques, are they looking for a video of someone pulling off a win using only low strong or ONLY P-throw??? No way. They want to see something they, and everyone else, didn't already know about.

With "low strong" or the P-throw story, it's more their fault for losing than the other way around... Definitely no offense meant by that either. Further, those tactics NEVER seem to win you more than one match. You may go against someone that will fall for it, but in all likelihood, the next guy won't. < And that's what happened in both stories.

Tournaments have slightly different "unwritten rules" about "playing to win." But in any other VF situation, endless P-Throw loop would be called scrubby play immediately.

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I have read Sirlin's book and it is very interesting. I have also communicated with Sirlin and some of the people that comment there; that is what turned me off.

Remember what Sirlin thinks of VF!!!

I take exception to this cause there is no "real" game. The game is the game as whole and nothing else, it can't be any other way. The game IS THE GAME. The game is the moves, the yomi and "the wall"; they are truly inseparable in reality.

 

lol wat

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif sure-you-ken's sirlins argument that sf4 has only increased execution difficulty

existence of VF & sf4 throw escape / attack option selects disprove the idea that 2 button throw == no option select

He needs to get back to writing referral link spam on his blog & ditch this sour grapes shit. Unreal engine 3 + "undo" button for a fighting game. . . so sorry THAT didn't get made.

 

Honestly , I don't completely buy into what he's saying. I think he may be a liitle (read: heavily) butthurt. Hate = hits as far as blogs go. It's easy to find something you dislike and blow it completely out of proportion. He's obviously aware of that. He makes some good points but I trust his opinion as much as I trust the next idiot's.

Another thing, someone mentioned people watching videos as a learning tool. Anyone who seriously wants to get better at a game won't be watching what the recorded players do. They'll be watching what they don't do.