Online 3D Fighter

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maddy said:

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Dandy_J said:

I think maddy will agree with me when I say doa 3 is the best fighting game ever /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

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As far as costumes are concerned, yeah. /versus/images/graemlins/cool.gif

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That was just wrong...but excellent indeed.

 

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Zero-chan said:

This is incorrect. IIRC, he has tried to learn and done fairly well with previous entries in the series (DOA2 did decently in JP arcades). Like many Japanese players, he tries and plays other stuff besides VF, including Fighting Vipers 2, in which he is the national champion. He also has a knack for being very, very good at whatever he decides to take up.

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Im not discussing his endevors with previous games in The doa series, but the one that is out now. His exact words...or should I say his his translated words were " Doa is a 2d fighter". I asked how and this was his response: " Jann Lee's will track baymans sidestep(roll)+/+.

Not only was he wrong, but its not feasable if both are done at the same time. Baymans sidestep goes under high attacks, so there is no way possible Jann Lee's will ever track.


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The fact that someone Heruru would rather play FV2, another fairly unpopular title which is five years old now, and is without a doubt the world's best and still getting better says A LOT.

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This do not rectify his major oversight he made about SS in Doa3.

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I'm certain DoA is fun. I know a lot of people who think it's fun. It's been almost universally rejected as a tournament game in both major markets (Asia and the West), however, so I think it is a game whose popularity is carried far more by its character appeal (or in Japan, "ease by which users can transfer game concepts into pr0n") than by gameplay.

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Truthfully I dont care that players in the west/esat dont think Doa3 is a tournament fighter. I have been to every major Fighting game site and Discussed Doa. 75% are players who dont like Doa because of Non game related reasons, 15% are players who dont like Doa because it dont play like their favorite fighter, 5% are those who are mad Doa3 didn't come out in the arcades or on the ps2, the last 5% are players who like Doa but dislike Doa3 because they feel its not a true sequel To Doa2. Trust me, I do my research.

 

Sign me up for the 5% that were pissed it didn't come out on PS2. I'm over that, but still would have been far happier if, well, you know, I could actually PLAY the game.

I can't afford all 3 consoles /versus/images/graemlins/mad.gif

But it still looks like a good game. And Tekken 4 is still lowest-tier, correct?

 

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Truthfully I dont care that players in the west/esat dont think Doa3 is a tournament fighter. I have been to every major Fighting game site and Discussed Doa. 75% are players who dont like Doa because of Non game related reasons, 15% are players who dont like Doa because it dont play like their favorite fighter, 5% are those who are mad Doa3 didn't come out in the arcades or on the ps2, the last 5% are players who like Doa but dislike Doa3 because they feel its not a true sequel To Doa2. Trust me, I do my research.


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Show me all the posts tallied by entry that show the various demographics of why people have various non gameplay related reasons for not playing DOA. Give me a nice word document.

Oh, and dig up that match play data too, that shows DOA tiers. After all, you have the site, I don't. I have other things to do with my time.

 

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KTallguy said:

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You're right, because semi-perfectly isn't arcade perfect and will ruin your timing. I guess I'm just more picky about having a game that isn't flawed.

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Liking the game you play to be perfect is not a problem. Im one of those people who think having online play is better than having no competition at all.

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Very true. But well programmed AI can introduce you to common guessing games and the mind games are there, although not as pronounced. Yes... AI can't equal human play. But AI > flawed online play.

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I mostly agree with you.IMO under good conditions, playing online > AI

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Ok, you may have me there. Still, I smell less 'cash-in' with this game. I just have more respect for Kojima than Itagaki. I'm willing to bet that Twin Snakes will make some pretty good enhancements to the gameplay of MGS2, and that DOAU is going to put a few DOA3 elements into DOA1&2 and slap on more costumes. Whatever, we just wait and see. I'm sure DOA fans will be happy.

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I rather have Doa4 than DoaU, But Im Glad DoaU is coming out. Doau will prepare us(doa playas) for online play and help expand the community.


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Yes, that's true. I've had a few gripes with DOA fans talking about how that's why DOA is "more complex" than VF. I'll just say this about environments:

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Why would you be upsetted by a comment like that. Its not like Vf4 is getting comments like "its the shallowest fighter ever", the game is nothing but boobs".What you heard is nothing to what I have to hear constantly.

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I believe that uneven environments can lead to unbalancing situations, like if you start the round in front of a tree and are immediately trapped at the beginning of a round. Yes I know you can move around at the beginning of a match, but I think the lack of crap in the way in VF gives more freedom of movement for the players,

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I see what your saying. I like Doa3 because you have to be aware of everything in the environment, and I love Vf4evo because it forces you to fight straight up from the get go. These are some of the reasons why I choose to play both games.

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and allows less cheese: Oh I just knocked you off a cliff and did a zillion damage. At least in VF the ring edges are of equal distance from both players. Just my opinion really.

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Like you said, you can move around before the match actually begin, I dont see how being knocked through a stage break would be a problem.

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Maybe DOA should have a system where you can interact more with trees or pillars or what have you, like sidle around a tree to retreat from an opponent, or swing and kick off of a tree, flip over tables backwards to escape, throw objects in the way, etc. I don't think you can do that in DOA right now.

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Hell no. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif I would play smash brother or Powerstone for that.

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Quotes like this suggest that you put a lot of time into the game to master it. Which is why I figured that you spend a lot of time on it.

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The past 3 years I have been studying the gameplay mechanics of Doa3. This is why I get agitated very quickly when someone tells me Doa3 is shallow.


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Your previous statements kind of seemed to poke fun at players who dedicate a lot of time to a game. That's why I kind of was confused when you started talking about how dedicated players are stupid, because then you start talking about how your DOA site is up, all the differences between the two games, and how your an expert on all things DOA. Does DOA not require extensive playing to get good at it or something?

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No you got it all wrong. You said:

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Maybe I'm just bitter because I feel like VF is a better game, and I don't like how it's not popular. It makes me feel like the gaming population is stupid and can't think, so they play a game that's easy to play.

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I said they are the opposite of being stupid because they are choosing a game that is better suited for them either because of time constraints,they want fast results, or simply dont like Virtua fighter.They made just decisions according to their own circumstance, the same way a person may play Vf4 because there circumstance allows them to play Vf4. My intent was never to say that people who are hardcore are stupid(and I dont see how what i wrote indicates that).

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What about the moderators of this site? Are they stupid? I'm sure that they don't play VF every second of their life, but they probably play more than I do.

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Read above.


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OK. Wow... so Japanese players have something to learn from you?

Lets see. How many more people play 3D fighting games competitively in Asia than in the US? Lets be hypothetical for simplicity's sake and say that there are 100 fighting game players in the world. 10 are in the US and 90 are in Asia. Lets say that in the US, 4 play SC2, 4 play Tekken 4/TTT, 1 plays VF, and 1 plays DOA. Lets see
Asia, where 60 play VF, 30 probably play Tekken and SC2 combined, and maybe .001 plays DOA.

Let me put it to you another way. Japanese and Korean players routinely kick everyones ass at fighting games at all international tournaments, except in games that they don't play (obviously).

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This example do not disprove that Japanes players cannot learn something from my site. If you dont play the game, how are you going to know what I speak of? And I gave an example using One of Japan's top Vf4 players not Knowing that SS is a viable function in Doa. If he is an indication of what Japanese players know about Doa3..I woulde suggest them to come to my site if they want to know more about Doa3..

 

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My argument is based off of everyone. Majority rules. Sure VF is proportionally we are a lot smaller in number in the US, but it's huge in Japan. Doa is small in the US and Japan. Hmm....

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Japan is where the Majority of High skilled Vf players are located, Japan is also the place where Players can recieve adequet competition...hmm either way you look at it, Players outside of Japan is in the same Boat as Doa players.

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Of course, you're still smarter than tens of thousands of Japanese and Korean players, who would be EDUCATED if they just stopped by your site and saw the merits of playing DOA competitively.

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LMAO, why are you trying to make it into Virtuapai Vs. the Japanese players. Anyways,Just like you mention:

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Japanese and Korean players routinely kick everyones ass at fighting games at all international tournaments, except in games that they don't play (obviously).

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If they doint play the game, how in hell are they going to know any or everything about the game. Stop being a smart ass and look at the evidence in front of you.While In America and France Doa3 was played alot more. These people are going to find more data about the game than those who dont play the game at all. So yes, The tens of thousands of Japanese and Korean players as well as the millions of other players can learn something from not only my site but from skilled Doa players as a whole.

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I'm sure that it must be superficiality that is keeping them from graduating to DOA.

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If you dont like something, Why are you going to play it to learn all of its intricasies? There are things in Doa that Most Japanese players simply dont like, ie, undulated and sloaped terrain(this is the exact reason why stages that used these elements were not used in Tk4 and Vf3 tournaments), Unbreakable command throws, and the way reverersals are set up. This is a universal complaint amongst most of Japanese players.. These happen to be reasons that keep them from accepting Doa. its not a superficial reason for not playing Doa, Doa provides a gameplay that they simply dont like.

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A tightly knit group of dedicated players, that supplement the thousands of competitive Japanese players, which in your mind, don't seem to matter.

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This is the second time you put words into my mouth. Do I think It matters yes, but Is it making that big of a difference?Hardly. n This is because the knowlege that is obtained is not used to its full potential..ie Players are not versing eachother enough to hone what they learned. This wouldn't be a problem if there were alot more competition for players outside of Japan/Korea.

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Listen, I'm gonna finish this because I have stuff to do. You listed a nice batch of enhancements that happened between the two games but nothing revolutionary or really even evolutionary. Maybe the only things that could have substantial impacts on the gameplay are the properties of the arenas and the stepping, the delay length of counters, and maybe the way you move the characters.

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First there are no evolutionary/revolutionary changes, than you decide to say maybe there are some? Ok, Make up your mind, its either there is a significant change in gameplay or not.

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I'm not going to list all the differences between VF3 and VF4. I don't have time to list them all, and you can probably find out by reading the faqs on this site. Anyway I have to go. This is mainly a disagreement between people who know two different games, so that's fine. I think I'll just close this arguement by saying that the amount of people who play DOA vs VF speaks for itself.

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Your right, When DoaU come Out, We will see how many people will be jumping the Doa bandwagon.

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Show me all the posts tallied by entry that show the various demographics of why people have various non gameplay related reasons for not playing DOA. Give me a nice word document. Show me all the posts tallied by entry that show the various demographics of why people have various non gameplay related reasons for not playing DOA. Give me a nice word document.

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When Im not too busy I will Go to every major site I visited and Do a Tally just for you of all the various non related Gameplay Reasons for not playing Doa.

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Oh, and dig up that match play data too, that shows DOA tiers. After all, you have the site, I don't. I have other things to do with my time.

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Hell No,The burden Of proof is on you to prove Doa3 gameplay will be tiered like Tk4's.

 

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KiwE said:

Lol, Hayate is Ein from Doa2 /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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Character wise yes, Gameplay wise NO.

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Do you honestly want to do this? I mean, debate (here) between VF and DOA3 by saying DOA3 has real depth etc cause you've played it alot (and more then VF) and others haven't? Believe me, there will be those who know both games who will flame you to fuck and beyond man (rightfully).

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Debating Doa3 being a deep fighter is nothing new to me, and im not frightend by those who you claim will flame me(actually I did it before, I guess it was b4 your time). I by myself dont claim Doa to be Deep, but all of the players I have conversed and played with regulary since 1999. When this Mysterious person(s) show up, There is no doubt Doa will be proven to be a deep fighter, im 1000% sure of it.

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Oh, I forgot; Hope you actually get a PS2 (and don't have to play it at your brothers) soon so you'll be able to try out Evo some more once again VirtuaPai. /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

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LOL, How clever. You should read what I wrote at my site again to get your info correct. I didn't need to go to my brothers to play evo, I had the Ps2 in my house. Meaning I had unlimited access to Vf4evo. hey you should know right, you live with me and all.


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/KiwE (Called him out of his "humble observant who likes both games just as much" / "I'm not doing discrete PR" front).

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Oh Did you, Lets see, Kiwe must know exactly how many hours VirtuaPai spent playing Vf both on console and in arcade. Kiwe must also know that virtuapai also has every virtua fighter game created, even the Vf kids and Fighters megamix(and did not have to buy evo because of not personally owning a ps2), Kiwe also knows that at one point Virtuapai could have given two shits about Doa, but actually took the time to understand the game instead of following behind other people opinions.Kiwe must have also known that Virtuapai aka Hyate had discussed Doa before on these boards aknowledging how he likes and appreciates both fighters...Kiwe must also know that virtuapai went out of his way to travel to play other virtua fighter players.Yeah you got Me Kiwe, Virtuapai is putting on a big front when it comes to liking both fighters.

You should take heed from your own sayings:

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Assumption is the mother of all fuckups.

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Do you have anything else, Im quite bored chatting with you. I have an Idea, Maybe you should go to my site again and twist some more things I have said to make me look like the bad guy. You can start here:

http://pub18.ezboard.com/fdoastrategyfrm2.showMessage?topicID=91.topic

Hmm. its funny how some players at my site said Vf4 sucks, Yet I disagreed and actually said i like Vf4 more..Oh shit Im realy on some PR bullshit bigging up Vf4 at my own site.

 

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aznricemasta said:

until sega can guarantee 60fps without lag, i think i'll stick with offline. losing to someone because i did Akira's + instead of his knee would certainly piss me off. i don't like getting pissed =P.

[/ QUOTE ] but they can't guarantee that though.

~~~ prances on to broad general reply to entire thread ~~~

I'm not sure how many people realize that for an online two player fighting game running at 60fps to be perfectly synched, the two connecting clients would have to have a latency of under 8.3ms, and this is not even including the time that the game would have to use to analyze the data...

1000ms/60fps = 16.6666666... then you factor in that you need to go both ways... ROUNDTRIP = time cut in half...
if there were no roundtrip to consider, then you couldn't truly be sure that the game was synched...

even then, you'd STILL need to be at a crazy 16.7ms...

light moves at ~186000 miles per second...
again, under optimal conditions (fiberoptic link from client to client)... you can get a 8.3ms response at a max of ~1550 miles and a 16.7ms response at a max of 3100 miles...

real world numbers for data traveling all those miles on wire/fiber are double the theoretical max... so the real world distance would be half that... at least...

but that's for perfection... a wise man posted in this same thread and said that you have to start at A to get to B...

I'm not waiting for B even though i know A is imperfect.

 

i stand corrected. i will say no more.

 

Ok... just one more reply....


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There are things in Doa that Most Japanese players simply dont like, ie, undulated and sloaped terrain(this is the exact reason why stages that used these elements were not used in Tk4 and Vf3 tournaments), Unbreakable command throws, and the way reverersals are set up. This is a universal complaint amongst most of Japanese players.. These happen to be reasons that keep them from accepting Doa. its not a superficial reason for not playing Doa, Doa provides a gameplay that they simply dont like.


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There are reasons why Japanese players don't like DOA, and maybe those are part of them. However, I don't believe that those dislikes are purely based on: "Oh I just don't like it" but rather based on how they effect gameplay, depth and so on. I consider those dislikes to be more well founded than the reasons why most US players don't like VF: "It's too hard", "It's not flashy". etc.

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If you dont like something, Why are you going to play it to learn all of its intricasies?

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I don't doubt that Japanese and Korean players picked up DOA and played it extensively in the beginning. Just like they did with Tekken 4. Of course, with Tekken 4, everyone knows that most of the Koreans said it was crap and went back to playing Tag. And so the story goes.

Next...
You said:

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These players are actually the opposite of stupid. They realise how much time you need to put into Vf and choose to play games that fit around their Schedule and provide instant gratification.

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Then you said:

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I said they are the opposite of being stupid because they are choosing a game that is better suited for them either because of time constraints,they want fast results, or simply dont like Virtua fighter.They made just decisions according to their own circumstance, the same way a person may play Vf4 because there circumstance allows them to play Vf4. My intent was never to say that people who are hardcore are stupid(and I dont see how what i wrote indicates that).

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So, basically what your saying is that DOA provides instant gratification, requires less work to get into and master, and smarter people play DOA because it takes less time to do the above.

Checkers is faster, provides instant gratification when I can double jump someone, and games probably wouldn't take more than an hour at most.

Chess is slow, takes a lot of time and thought to get into and understand, is slow to gratify, and games can take several hours to a few days.

By your rational, people who play Chess are stupid, and checkers are smarter. I'd like to point out that Chess is played by adults and is very popular, featured in movies, etc. Checkers is mostly played by children.

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LMAO, why are you trying to make it into Virtuapai Vs. the Japanese players.

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Because you just said that all Japanese players should visit your site because they'll learn something about DOA. The connotation there was that you have some kind of holy grail of a site that outlines depth in DOA that Japanese players never discovered. This is cocky. Japanese players play fighting games like crazy people drool. Games are torn apart months after their release, with strategy guides, whole websites devoted to one particular move's properties(exaggerating, but you get the picture).

Do you really think that you suddenly discovered a hidden depth to DOA that no one else discovered in Asia, where they've played everything backwards and forwards? I could see an angle if the game was made by Americans, and it's a completely different style that they never encountered. But DOA3 is a natural extension of DOA2 and as such, I'm sure the Japanese didn't have too much trouble getting into it. However, obviously they didn't stay. Do you honestly believe that Japanese people just never played the game, ever?

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First there are no evolutionary/revolutionary changes, than you decide to say maybe there are some? Ok, Make up your mind, its either there is a significant change in gameplay or not.


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I don't call those changes revolutionary, just as I don't think VF4 --> Evo is revolutionary. It's the same damn engine with stuff tacked on(including nicer graphics).

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Your right, When DoaU come Out, We will see how many people will be jumping the Doa bandwagon.


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Ok... we'll see how many people jump on the bandwagon of an older game, technically. Right? It's just DOA1 and 2 with stepping and better graphics right? Why release a DOA3 in the first place?

Oh, and I retract my arguement about the unbalancing, I do think I was out of line. Just tell me yourself if you feel that teirs exist in DOA and if they do, what are they? Just curious really.

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There is no doubt Doa will be proven to be a deep fighter, im 1000% sure of it.

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You're losing your battles. DOA has been out for a while and no one has discovered or been able to prove that DOA has a ton of depth. Don't you think it would have been discovered by now?

 

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Because you just said that all Japanese players should visit your site because they'll learn something about DOA. The connotation there was that you have some kind of holy grail of a site that outlines depth in DOA that Japanese players never discovered. This is cocky. Japanese players play fighting games like crazy people drool. Games are torn apart months after their release, with strategy guides, whole websites devoted to one particular move's properties(exaggerating, but you get the picture).

Do you really think that you suddenly discovered a hidden depth to DOA that no one else discovered in Asia, where they've played everything backwards and forwards? I could see an angle if the game was made by Americans, and it's a completely different style that they never encountered. But DOA3 is a natural extension of DOA2 and as such, I'm sure the Japanese didn't have too much trouble getting into it. However, obviously they didn't stay. Do you honestly believe that Japanese people just never played the game, ever?

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KT, just wanted to point this out - The fact that the XBOX market in Japan is ABSOLUTE SHIT might factor into this somewhat. Then again, games like DoA3 are supposed to be the system sellers over there. And it hasn't seemed to work very well. The hardcore fighting gamers in JP aren't impressed by it (or else they'd be buying more XBs for it, logically. I mean, Smash Brothers was a definite Japanese GC seller, though it's hardly a technical fighter... I guess the pure fun factor is just higher?), but the hardcore drooling otaku camp is. (DoAX is the top-selling XB game ever in Japan. Really.) DoA2 didn't seem to make as much of a lasting impression so as to carry over into DoA3 sales, either.

Not putting it in Japanese arcades was also stupid on Tecmo's part, as very few serious fighting game players want to play tournaments in their houses. Then again, being in arcades does not = acceptance by Japanese players, as the spectacular failure of the arcade SC2 and MvC2 clearly shows.

I'm actually very convinced that the DoA3 was made more for a Western audience in mind, from a gameplay standpoint, with the fanservice thrown in for the JP nerds for the otaku sale (DOAX again). Then again, considering Tecmo is now getting very favorable treatment (if you know what I mean) from Microsoft, I don't think the lack of acceptance among "hardcore fighting game players" bothers them so much...

I think too much when I can't fall asleep, it seems.

 

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KTallguy said:

There are reasons why Japanese players don't like DOA, and maybe those are part of them. However, I don't believe that those dislikes are purely based on: "Oh I just don't like it" but rather based on how they effect gameplay, depth and so on. I consider those dislikes to be more well founded than the reasons why most US players don't like VF: "It's too hard", "It's not flashy". etc.

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Agreed

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I don't doubt that Japanese and Korean players picked up DOA and played it extensively in the beginning. Just like they did with Tekken 4. Of course, with Tekken 4, everyone knows that most of the Koreans said it was crap and went back to playing Tag. And so the story goes.

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That was their choice and they have the right to do as they feel, but im not going to allow them to decide what games i should or shouldn't play.

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So, basically what your saying is that DOA provides instant gratification, requires less work to get into and master, and smarter people play DOA because it takes less time to do the above.

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No, This is what I said:

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Quote myself:

I said they are the opposite of being stupid because they are choosing a game that is better suited for them either because of time constraints,they want fast results, or simply dont like Virtua fighter.They made just decisions according to their own circumstance, the same way a person may play Vf4 because there circumstance allows them to play Vf4.

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1)Playing games based on your circumstance is the Smart Decision. This post is not about players who choose to play less technical fighters are smarter /versus/images/graemlins/mad.gif.

2) I didn't say DOA provides instant gratification, requires less work to get into and master, and smarter people play DOA.Next time, Please quote and comment on the things I did say.

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By your rational, people who play Chess are stupid, and checkers are smarter. I'd like to point out that Chess is played by adults and is very popular, featured in movies, etc. Checkers is mostly played by children.

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When you stop misquoting me, maybe you will find that your arguing over your own contrived statements and not with what I have stated.

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Because you just said that all Japanese players should visit your site because they'll learn something about DOA. The connotation there was that you have some kind of holy grail of a site that outlines depth in DOA that Japanese players never discovered. This is cocky. Japanese players play fighting games like crazy people drool. Games are torn apart months after their release, with strategy guides, whole websites devoted to one particular move's properties(exaggerating, but you get the picture).

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1) Doa3 was not released in the arcade
2) Doa3 had moderate success in Japan
3) Xbox did shit poor in Sales
4) The Majority of Japanese players Dont consider Doa3 a tournament fighter.
5) Tournaments are practically non existent in Japan
6) They simply dont give a shit about doa, and have not invested time into Doa3 to see how much depth the game contains.

They sure broke down Doa3's mechanics with all the exploration of the game /versus/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

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Do you really think that you suddenly discovered a hidden depth to DOA that no one else discovered in Asia, where they've played everything backwards and forwards?

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If they haven't put in 10% of their time into Doa3 as they put in other fighters, how are they actually playing everything backwards n forward? How are you going to learn a fighter if you dont play it? The answer is right in front of you. Your so blinded by what the Japanese players have acomplished that you cannot see that they not only didn't like Doa as a tournament fighter, they didn't play doa at all competitively. What Knowledge is going to be obtained if you dont play the game.

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I could see an angle if the game was made by Americans, and it's a completely different style that they never encountered. But DOA3 is a natural extension of DOA2 and as such, I'm sure the Japanese didn't have too much trouble getting into it. However, obviously they didn't stay. Do you honestly believe that Japanese people just never played the game, ever?

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They dont play the game competitively, amatter of fact, the Majority dont play the game at all(since its release in 2001). Your simply looking over the fact that they dont play the game. Its impossible to know how deep a game is if you dont play it. Having a little understanding of the game is not knowing the game. Playing previous games in the series is not knowing the newest installation. The logic is quite simple., The more you play the more you know. The Japanes have played (doa3)little so they know little(about doa3).

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Why release a DOA3 in the first place?

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If your going to ask that, why is there a MGS2, or Resident Evil 2,3,Code veronica or why there is a Street fighter 3...etc..

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Oh, and I retract my arguement about the unbalancing, I do think I was out of line. Just tell me yourself if you feel that teirs exist in DOA and if they do, what are they? Just curious really.

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Ok, Do tiers exist? Yes. Just like Vf4, the tiers are only miniscule and doesn't mess up the balance of the game..

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You're losing your battles. DOA has been out for a while and no one has discovered or been able to prove that DOA has a ton of depth. Don't you think it would have been discovered by now?

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Doa has been proven to have depth many many times.
Its people who dont play the game (and follow other people opinions) that find Doa to be shallow...like someone can telepathically look up how deep Doa3 is by looking at the games cover. /versus/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

Mmmmmmm Pie

I don't really want this DOA vs VF debate for starters cause I can kinda symphatize with VirtuaPai cause DOA get's alot of uncessary shit actually. It is a good game. Honest. But so is Tekken and SC2. In my opinion Evo>SC2>Tekken>DOA though but that's not saying the game is crap (it isn't).

Now, that being said, I find virtua pai's Pow on the matter to be really weird. You honestly seem to think that every major magazine and every pro player is off when judging the game as forgiving and such and now say that "well if they've played this game yada yada as much they'd understand". Can't you see how wrong that kind of thinking is? You have played DOA more then VF right (correct me on this otherwise). Does that mean that the same rule applies to you? How about if we all just say fuck it and start playing MK:Unlimited instead - that would be neat.

I'm bored chatting with you to btw (was fun to get you all riled up though), infact - as stated earlier - of a DOA vs VF thread (it's you against the world) when this was not intended to be so. On one hand you say that people who don't take fightinggames seriously are smart (yes I made that interpetation aswell as anybody else) and imply that those who do are morons and on the otherhand you claim you have deep enough knowledge of the game not only to be able to educate japanese proplayers but to be able to make a comparision over both it and VF (does that make you a double moron?).

On one hand you say "Oh everything is so great and balanced" in DOA and in your own forum on your lists of changes you would want the holds to be cut down in time with half atleast etc. The stats on holds etc do suck (and not Arcade style on them even further) and that isn't even a question up for debate. You being able to do them while an opponent has you in the midst of a string (making it so you actually win in the situation) even adds to it.

Furthermore; I don't think it was a wrong judgement to say that DOA is basicly a 2d game. Just as SC2 is probably to much 3d with it's stepping (vertical slashes aren't really long range and fast in general), DOA is the opposite as it's heavily based on strings and strings do track you if you evade from the first hit (so what's the point?). There aren't even sidethrows. The fact that not all characters even have a true sidestep ability (and you need good positioning anyways) just adds to the imbalance amongst the characters and yes - there is one (and either you're truelly stupid for thinking it's not noticable or fuck you for avoiding the question this long to shrug it of as nothing). Fast characters have and always will rule in the DOA universe over the slow ones. It doesn't take a PHD to figure out why Heavies suck when all characters can do massive damage from stuns and holds are abused to the point of fuck and there aren't make up factors for the HW's in the same way as in VF (command throws are a joke and so is escaping multipart ones).

The game is really fast by design (making it more fun) but extremly high gameplay speed combined with great results on fast moves leads to imbalances (specially when moves aren't counterable hard). That is the path of design that the people behind the game has taken (and DOA3 is even more noobified in moves then DOA2) but of cource the faster a game is the harder it is to react correctly with thought and having moves that knock characters halfway across the screen for all with fast execution when enviromental factor do so much (and you can easily die from a fall) isn't exactly all goody goody in a balance point of view but yeah it's fun (but shallow - the word you dislike). You're the only one alive who thinks of DOA as a truelly deep fighter, not even the game designers intended it to be so.

Now while all of this is debatable ofc I didn't really have to say a shit of it, just post this;

<font color="yellow"> Behold the depth of DOA3 (VirtuaPai vs Snake) and notice how Holds (Reversals) aren't abused. </font>

Kisses and Hugs - KiwE (And that's why it's not a tournament game period).

Btw; About DOA:U - is there a date set?

 

You should also note that Japanese people in general are extremely zenophobic which is probally the biggest reason xbox got shot down (and still did pretty well for the first american made console to be released over there)

 

There might be a way to play Fighting games online if someone made a USB controller port that goes to the computer, and then you just hook your PS2 to it.

 

I think any game can be as deep and technical as you make it. Mario 1 can be played at a high level if any of you have seen the mario skills showcase vid floating about the net. I do agree that just because the "hardcore gaming" public such as japanese or korean player thinks a certain game is crap, that doesn't mean you have to think it's crap. It's never a bad thing for you to decide for yourself what's fun and not fun. I, for one, likes certain games that other people believe to be crap. On the same token, that doesn't give you a right to expand your own opinion about the game to be something universal. For example, I personally like the FF series, but there are many people who believe that series is crap. I understand where they are coming from, so if people tell me the FF games suck, I don't really mind it. Since if I look at where they are coming from, I might come to the same conclusion as them. Yet, I like it for reasons that are valid to me. In the same context, a kiddie pool may be really deep to a baby, but that doesn't mean it is really deep; yet to the baby, it's hard for him to believe that to everyone that's not a bady, that it's not really deep. The hard part, then, is to decide who is the baby and who is everyone else.

 

Re: Mmmmmmm Pie

[ QUOTE ]
KiwE said:

Now, that being said, I find virtua pai's Pow on the matter to be really weird. You honestly seem to think that every major magazine and every pro player is off when judging the game as forgiving and such

[/ QUOTE ]

I know that the game is acessable to newbies(same as SC) players and on that same note, I know the game provides enough depth and technicalities for those who are hardcore players. If you dont like the game because of its set-up, than thats perfectly acceptable, but you cant proclaim shallowness with out providing proof. I cant tally the countless threads I seen players from these hardcore sites stating how doa is shallow without any proof. If Adequet proof is given, there will be nothing for me to complain about.And Like you said, You know Doa is given undeserved criticisim.

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and now say that "well if they've played this game yada yada as much they'd understand". Can't you see how wrong that kind of thinking is? You have played DOA more then VF right (correct me on this otherwise). Does that mean that the same rule applies to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets say I came to VFDC claiming Vf4 is shallow or what ever and have no gameplay related reasoning behind it. How many of you will flame me to Hell and Back? I know for a fact you guys wont take that BS. You would first flame me, then you will tell me to actually play the game, and study the game, do the training exercises, read faqs n guides..etc.

Bloody roar is another fighter that is not played by the masses, your going to tell me that the niche of players that dedicate their time to bloodyRoar wont know more than the non players?

Why does the table turn when Doa players say you realy need to play the game more to see its depth. How is it any different from you guys saying that to someone who knows little about the Vf4?

[ QUOTE ]

On one hand you say that people who don't take fightinggames seriously are smart (yes I made that interpetation aswell as anybody else) and imply that those who do are morons and on the otherhand you claim you have deep enough knowledge of the game not only to be able to educate japanese proplayers but to be able to make a comparision over both it and VF (does that make you a double moron?).

[/ QUOTE ]

If you guys actually read what I wrote instead putting words in my mouth, you would know I did not say that.
KT was saying that players that choosed to play less technical fighters are stupid. I said they are not stupid because they choose to play games that are determined by their own circumstance(ie wether they want instant gratification, dont have the time to master a more technical fighter..etc). How does that equal me saying "oh they are smart because they play a less technical fighter" and "People who choose to play more technical fighters are stupid'? Within that same breath, I said:

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Virtuapai said
They made just decisions according to their own circumstance, the same way a person may play Vf4 because there circumstance allows them to play Vf4.

[/ QUOTE ]

If any of you would have read this part, you would have seen that being smart was making the right decision because of your circumstance...which had nothing to do with wether you play a deep fighter or less deep fighter.

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On one hand you say "Oh everything is so great and balanced" in DOA and in your own forum on your lists of changes you would want the holds to be cut down in time with half atleast etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you know how stupid it was to mention this. Every person want improvements to the fighter they play. Virtua Fighter is one of the most balanced games out there, yet there are threads here discussing the significance of Brads kicks and how it should be sped up or "what would you like to see in Vf5 "thread,"there is balance then there's Pai"(thats my girl so you know I read that)..etc.

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You being able to do them while an opponent has you in the midst of a string (making it so you actually win in the situation) even adds to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

1)This is getting more interesting. Its not that simple. You can escape while being in the stun, but it does not mean the attack will be caught with the reversal. This is combated by mixing up your strings, using hold resistent moves and staggered timing, or a throw.

2)How is this any different from throw escaping? I can easily say throw escaping is a problem because it allows your opponent to escape in the midst of my throw. Then someone will say it adds more depth to the gameplay by allowing the player to escape and cause mix up games..etc..hello, thats no different from what happens in Doa stun game.

[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore; I don't think it was a wrong judgement to say that DOA is basicly a 2d game. Just as SC2 is probably to much 3d with it's stepping (vertical slashes aren't really long range and fast in general), DOA is the opposite as it's heavily based on strings and strings do track you if you evade from the first hit (so what's the point?).

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is to Sidestep attack and get counter hit damage. Alot of strings are cut short (ie 2 attacks)when you sidestep cutting down on how many attacks you need to worry about and it also throws your opponent off balance. The point is also having the ability to sidestep all around the opponent to get guaranteed damage. Then there is the fact that non string moves are evadeable, and you can evade midst string.

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The fact that not all characters even have a true sidestep ability (and you need good positioning anyways) just adds to the imbalance amongst the characters

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Since when is having character specific moves unbalancing. Vf4 and its character specific reversals must be a sign of how Vf4 is unbalanced(and you need to know which moves you can reverse and what attack class)???Right.

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Fast characters have and always will rule in the DOA universe over the slow ones. It doesn't take a PHD to figure out why Heavies suck when all characters can do massive damage from stuns and holds are abused to the point of fuck and there aren't make up factors for the HW's in the same way as in VF (command throws are a joke and so is escaping multipart ones).

[/ QUOTE ]

1)I cant but help but to laugh at you. If you dont know by now, Doa incorporates a Hold=throw=Attack Gameplay. Holds dont occur anymore than Attacks or throws. Your idea of reveresal abuse is not abuse at all but how the game was intentionally set up.

2) Stun games are 50/50. There is no guaranteed damage from here. no disadvantage in this department

3)Damage from reversals can be given by heavies as well. There are no handicap in this department.

4) Having no command throw escapes mean that the heavies can give more damage with throws

5) Linking throws are no Joke. A character like bass can get 115pts of damage from a link throw, a 120%-150% modification increase will be given if its a counter or high counter throw.

6) Escaping link throws is not easy if your opponent is bufferring the next command. You can search within this very site and see that someone besides myself has said this.

7) Fast characters can be counterd attacked by heavies just like the medium and light characters do.

8) all the heavy characters have decent attacks and attack set-ups.

The only handicap is in speed. The heavier characters make this up by having harder hitting moves.in Doa3 There are 4 charcters in the heavy class .
Bayman, Bass, Gen Fu and Leon. 3 of them are grapplers. Unlike the two heaviest characters in Vf4(who happen to be grapplers), their throwing strength is not diminished by command throw escaping. A matter of fact, their throws are faster than those of non grapplers.
-Gen fu, Hits harder than the medium/light characters, he has 2 dedicated Sidestep+Attacks, Knockback futher,and he has parries that gives him 16 frame advantage(he can reverse both high/mid with , and low with ).
-Bayman, Has a dedicated Sidestep, he hits harder, throws harder, has more knockback attacks, Catch throws, ground throws, link throws and he has advanced Reversals.
-Leon hits harder, Throws harder, have Air and ground throws, catch throws, running throws, and link throws.
-Bass hits harder than anyone else, throws harder than anyone else, has catch throws, air throws, ground throws, set up throws, running throws, and he has wall reversals and linking reversals.

What you dont realise, There are players in the Doa community who feel Bass is top tiered(who happened to be the heaviest and slowest character). there is this great Bass player by the name of DJ Playboi 12 who won many tournaments with him.
.
[ QUOTE ]
The game is really fast by design (making it more fun) but extremly high gameplay speed combined with great results on fast moves leads to imbalances (specially when moves aren't counterable hard).

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Fast moves in general dont have these great results as you proclaim. For great results you need to have better mind games and set-ups than your opponent. Simply attacking wont give you a great results, stunning your opponent wont give you great results. Thinking that you dont have to work for you win in Doa is a big mistake on your part. Nothing in Doa give you these great unbalancing results. Everything in Doa require you to set up your opponent to even get decent amount of damage.

[ QUOTE ]
the faster a game is the harder it is to react correctly with thought and having moves that knock characters halfway across the screen for all with fast execution when enviromental factor do so much (and you can easily die from a fall) isn't exactly all goody goody in a balance point of view

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, Lets see,

Doa is only slightly faster than Vf4, so its practically no harder to react to the moves.Vf4 has much smaller arenas than Doa, so there is no need for that many knock back attacks.All Knock back attacks in Doa dont execute very fast and they are all counterable . Every Character in Doa dont have the same KnockBack potential, or the same amount of knockback attacks. You can easily die from a fall just as you can easily die From a ringout, the only difference in vf4 it immediate loss. There is nothing unbalancing about having more environmental interaction when all characters are capable of using the environment and causing environmental damage with equal opprtunities and success. There are no easy set-ups where you can dish alot of damage. Everything is based on you seting up your opponent.. and as you know, the higher skilled you are, the more work you need to do to win..this is no different in Doa. But you think everything is so easy to do with great rewards and with little consequence.

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but yeah it's fun (but shallow - the word you dislike).

[/ QUOTE ]

what's shallow is your explanation of why Heavies are dominated in Doa, and how the environment is imbalancing. Imbalance occurs when there is no proportion or balanced distribution amongst viable options. so far you have not proven this to be true.

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You're the only one alive who thinks of DOA as a truelly deep fighter, not even the game designers intended it to be so.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I was, there wouldn't be other people who agree with me. ie people at doacentral.com, doa3.fateback.com, Tecmoinc.com, and there are players from this very site who stated doa has depth.

If the designer didn't think doa had no depth or intended for it to be a shallow fighter, he would have never said this:

[ QUOTE ]
TI:

Hmm... well, I can't tell you much right now, but the last version of DOA, the tag battle was made for hardcore gamers. This time on the Xbox, the casual gamer will be able to totally enjoy the tag battle and the hardcore gamer will enjoy it even more. So, as you've played it yourself the game is easier to play enabling casual gamers to easily enjoy the game while not losing the depth for the hardcore fans. The tag battle mode is along the same idea where tag mode is easier to implement for casual players but not losing any depth for the hardcore fans.

[/ QUOTE ]

You see how he talks about allowing casual players more access to Doa while retaining its depth for the hardcore player. Oh shit thats exactly how doa works. Its easy to play but hard to master. Here is the link:

http://xbox.ign.com/articles/098/098187p1.html

[ QUOTE ]
Now while all of this is debatable ofc I didn't really have to say a shit of it, just post this;

<font color="yellow"> Behold the depth of DOA3 (VirtuaPai vs Snake) and notice how Holds (Reversals) aren't abused. </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

And what does this prove? If its to say that reversals are used alot than...Duh, Doa basic gameplay is reversals/attacks/throws. There is no doubt you will see alot more reversals being used in Doa's gameplay than other fighters.

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Btw; About DOA:U - is there a date set?

[/ QUOTE ]

Its set to be released in March.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Srider said:

I think any game can be as deep and technical as you make it. Mario 1 can be played at a high level if any of you have seen the mario skills showcase vid floating about the net. I do agree that just because the "hardcore gaming" public such as japanese or korean player thinks a certain game is crap, that doesn't mean you have to think it's crap. It's never a bad thing for you to decide for yourself what's fun and not fun. I, for one, likes certain games that other people believe to be crap. On the same token, that doesn't give you a right to expand your own opinion about the game to be something universal. For example, I personally like the FF series, but there are many people who believe that series is crap. I understand where they are coming from, so if people tell me the FF games suck, I don't really mind it. Since if I look at where they are coming from, I might come to the same conclusion as them. Yet, I like it for reasons that are valid to me. In the same context, a kiddie pool may be really deep to a baby, but that doesn't mean it is really deep; yet to the baby, it's hard for him to believe that to everyone that's not a bady, that it's not really deep. The hard part, then, is to decide who is the baby and who is everyone else.

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally agree.

 

Agreed. I never said it's wrong to think a certain game is fun or not. However the technial merits of a game, and whether many players consider it tournament worthy will indicate whether a game has a lot of staying power and if it is worth being played competitively, and if so, tournaments will be set up, etc. Players are of all different mindsets, but if a lot of gamers like a game, there will be tournaments. Otherwise there wouldn't be a demand for tournaments in the first place.

Virtuapai: I refuse to believe that people just refused to discover the fact that DOA had depth. I also refuse to believe that no one in Japan played DOA extensively before you. It's been out for too long. I totally understand Zero-chan, that many Japanese didn't buy X-box or play DOA3, but some did, and someone would have discovered the depth, told other players, and there would be more of a following. You mentioned that DOA2 was popular in the arcade. Is it too farfetched to think that one of those fans bought an X-box and DOA3? Is it therefore, strange to assume that those fans would have discovered the depth already?

Also, VirtuaPai, you misquote me a lot as well. For example, when I said " Why release a DOA3 in the first place?", before that, I said "Ok... we'll see how many people jump on the bandwagon of an older game, technically. Right? It's just DOA1 and 2 with stepping and better graphics right?"

So basically, I'm implying that releasing an online DOA1&2 is a step back for the series, in a revolutionary, or even evolutionary sense. Why would you want to play DOA2 when 3 is out? Where's online DOA4?

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, Do tiers exist? Yes. Just like Vf4, the tiers are only miniscule and doesn't mess up the balance of the game..


[/ QUOTE ]

This is based on what?

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Its people who dont play the game (and follow other people opinions) that find Doa to be shallow...like someone can telepathically look up how deep Doa3 is by looking at the games cover.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your absolutely right, if you don't play the game, and think it's shallow, that's dumb. In the past, I thought DOAXVB was shallow based on the subject matter. It was stupid to think that, so I played it, and affirmed my beliefs. However, again, it's really hard to believe that DOA3 was released 2 years ago, and no one has discovered that it's deep yet/until now. Also, how do you prove depth? I think in general, the amount of players who are playing the game competively is a good measure. Look at the checkers/chess analogy one more time. When's the last time you heard of a checker tournament?

[ QUOTE ]
There is no doubt Doa will be proven to be a deep fighter, im 1000% sure of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

When will be proven? Why hasn't it been proven already?

 

Re: Mmmmmmm Pie

[ QUOTE ]
I know that the game is acessable to newbies(same as SC) players and on that same note,

[/ QUOTE ]

SC2 is nowhere near as easily accessible to Newbies, nowhere near at all. Have you even played the game?

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Why does the table turn when Doa players say you realy need to play the game more to see its depth. How is it any different from you guys saying that to someone who knows little about the Vf4?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you are in an extreme minority while there's a general agreement in the world over that VF is the deepest fighter there is. I can go around claiming that apples are pears and pears are infact apples but the general conception would be that cause my PoW is against everybody elses the explanationpart would be in my hands.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you know how stupid it was to mention this. Every person want improvements to the fighter they play. Virtua Fighter is one of the most balanced games out there, yet there are threads here discussing the significance of Brads kicks and how it should be sped up or "what would you like to see in Vf5 "thread,"there is balance then there's Pai"(thats my girl so you know I read that)..etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great, but what's being discussed are character specifics whilest your complains (and everybody elses) against DOA is against the games engine. Still don't see any difference? Many people, myself included, would have a hard time even thinking about what should be changed within the Virtua Fighter engine. If the foundation is shite, what's built on top of it will follow.

[ QUOTE ]
How is this any different from throw escaping? I can easily say throw escaping is a problem because it allows your opponent to escape in the midst of my throw. Then someone will say it adds more depth to the gameplay by allowing the player to escape and cause mix up games..etc..hello, thats no different from what happens in Doa stun game.

[/ QUOTE ]

TE's are a balancing tool as the more strong throw characters have more throw directions etc. The more throw directions a character has the harder it will be to break his throw. It also seperates scrubs from better players due to just how hard it is to do all of it's variations I can go on. You don't see the difference between this and the fact that if I get you in a string I can do a reversal in it allthough I'm stunned and make it so I that your efforts of stealing healthpoints from my character was nullified? It would be closer to if Characters could perform sabakis / reversals in midair of a combo then to compare it to TE's.

[ QUOTE ]
The point is to Sidestep attack and get counter hit damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Since when is having character specific moves unbalancing. Vf4 and its character specific reversals must be a sign of how Vf4 is unbalanced(and you need to know which moves you can reverse and what attack class)???Right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you still trying to sell Sidestepping as something that occurs alot in DOA when you know it's not so (you should know how flaky they are)? If you're trying to sell sidestepp as such a great tool you must also recognize that it's a great advantage for a character to even have the ability (how would VF look like if only a few chars could ?). See "If the foundation is shite" above. Who gives a fuck if you can sidestep to a weak punish as compared to a sidestep to a Yoho in VF without being tracked anyways?

[ QUOTE ]
1)I cant but help but to laugh at you. If you dont know by now, Doa incorporates a Hold=throw=Attack Gameplay. Holds dont occur anymore than Attacks or throws. Your idea of reveresal abuse is not abuse at all but how the game was intentionally set up.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's really nice and I laugh right back at you. See your own clip for reference over how nicely the Throws>Holds work in real life from a selfproclaimed master of the game. God damn you guys throw alot when the other opponent goes for a hold.... If you want something to really laugh about that would be you suggesting to others to counter command throws by throwing yourself or how you seem to define the only difference between VF and DOA as throwescapes. Go back and minamistep with Bass or Leon for a while - Goly, those guys are probably overpowered. It shouldn't be a problem since "I realy dont see why Doa is always put down, considering how vf4 is no better in the control aspect." right?

[ QUOTE ]
5) Linking throws are no Joke. A character like bass can get 115pts of damage from a link throw, a 120%-150% modification increase will be given if its a counter or high counter throw.

6) Escaping link throws is not easy if your opponent is bufferring the next command. You can search within this very site and see that someone besides myself has said this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bs it's not. In VF you get one command input to get out of the throw. For reference, imagine how great Goh's Tsukami throw pulls would be if every command you inputted to escape registered. P.S; if this is so fine why did you put it on your own site in a discussion over things you'd like changed for the next game?

[ QUOTE ]
If the designer didn't think doa had no depth or intended for it to be a shallow fighter, he would have never said this:

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for that article, I've been searching for it (but I bet there are better onces out there).

[ QUOTE ]
IGNXbox: If you were to pinpoint the biggest changes from DOA2 to DOA3, what would they be?

TI: First of all, we didn't have ending movies in DOA2 and now we're doing that. We're going to end up with a lot of good ending movies. So we got 50 members at Team Ninja developing the game but in addition, we have hired an additional 100 extra artists working on the ending movies due to the size of the project. So I think that's one of the biggest differences from DOA2 and DOA3. Of course, the gameplay and controls are much easier with DOA3.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, I wonder what that means VirtuaPai? Could it be that moves Like Jan Lee's dragon cannon are now instead of to make it more accesible to scrubs etc? Wow, this game must really have great hidden depth when the game designers keep pulling back on complexity of the fighting! I think you should go to Japan and educate them aswell over how wrong their statements are, you probably know the game better. P.S; Doesn't this make your list of improvments gameplay wise for DOA3 (which was already crap) seem like shit?

[ QUOTE ]
And what does this prove? If its to say that reversals are used alot than...Duh, Doa basic gameplay is reversals/attacks/throws.

[/ QUOTE ]

To show just how scrubby the game is, even with a self proclaimed master - wasn't it obvious? To show how your dialog of throwing people who do holds is BS. To show that you can infact be a great threat if you're new to the game, have basic knowledge, and someone has told you where the hold button is while DOA players say "I've never lost to a scrub in my entire life!". Do you want me to go on?

P.S; What the fuck has you saying something positive about vf, dated September last year got to do with my question about if you had a PS2 (which you still haven't answered) after reading your "p.s. Hub, I was using my brothers Ps2 to play Vf4evo. He left and took it with him." that is dated in January this year? It's not like I think you believe VF is a bad game, I just think you honestly believe DOA3 is up to par with it gameplay wise or something (why is this debate being had otherwise?)

/Your Friendly Neighbour (Nah, I don't want to live in your house) - KiwE.