okizemi

Its totally nonsense to say that VF2 is OVERALL fair, any expert VF player will know that Lau, Kage or Akira is tons more powerful than any other character in VF2.

Quoting you:
"Just thought I'd jump in and say something re: popularity. You make the point that popular doesn't necessarily equal good. That's true, to an extent... but in Japan it's much less true than in the US. If you have gamests and whatnot from then, do you happen to have figures on how well the Capcom vs. games did compared to any VF game?"

I used to subscribe to bi-weekly Jap mags like Gamest and Famicom, there is an arcade operating revenue chart section, unfortunately, I've thrown them away. All I can say is I won't lie just to make a point.
Don't know about VF4, but VF2 and VF3 have always been chart leaders, way ahead of Tekken or any other game.

Quoting you:
"Sure. Rich isn't talking out of his ass when he says interest in Japan was not as high as predicted. It was being reported all over the place on RGVA and message boards back when VF3 was still brand new. He didn't come up with it last night just to make a point."

Not many Jap VFers(Jap because you made the point that Japan's popularity figures mean more than U.S) visit message boards or RGVA often, and most of them don't speak English so unless Mr.Bungle and you have visited many Jap forums to arrive at this conclusion, your point don't stand.

Quoting you:
"Your argument was that 2 was nowhere near as good as four because two was much cheaper. .. and that 4 is much closer to 3 in terms of gameplay mechanics and fairness level... that about right? So if you're going to support your argument, complain about a truly unfair, horrible VF2 move (Jacky's PPEK comes to mind)... Lau's f,d K? pbbt. In 2 you could block it for a free elbow sagger, single palm, double palm, low throw, etc etc etc. You were fucked if you used it in 2 and it was hardly rewarding. In three it was even more unrewarding... at least in 2 it occasionally floated for a combo. In 3 comboing from it is pretty rare. I can admit that it was tough to counter in VF3OB, but that was fixed in TB. It was easy to block-n-elbow-stagger, block-n-low throw, block-n-shrm, block-n-kickflip, etc.

If you're arguing that it's rewarding in 4, how so? Is it no longer elbow/low throw counterable like it was in VF3 TB? Can you do lengthy, un-QRable combos from it now? Is it faster or more damaging?"

Its perfectly fair that Lau's f,dk should be punishable in VF2 or VF3(I repeat, it was too cheap in VF3 so it was powered down in tb), its got a monster hit-judgement, is pretty quick for a low sweep(18f??) and it does quite a fair bit of damage. And when did I argue that its more rewarding in VF4? Its not, in fact that move is quite under-powered or downright useless in VF4, but I'm not complaining about useless moves and there are plenty out there, its the super cheap ones eg.dp in VF2(maybe in VF4 too) thats irritating me. So whats your point? I'm not getting it.




<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by alucard on 10/22/01 01:52 PM (server time).</FONT></P>

 

*sigh*
At least someone knows what I've been rambling about...
Its irritating isn't it, the low p I mean.

 

Yeah everyone whores low punches there in the test version, those who don't get pissed off. =) They'll usually interrupt elbows and sweeps unless you happen you be just outside of range. Aa you mention dodge and attack/throw or else just backdash are probably the best bets. From my experience, low throws are tough to get on someone who low punches consistently since you need to be right next to them and they usually get interrupted. Unless you backdash away from their low punch and dash in and do your throw.

 

Its totally nonsense to say that VF2 is OVERALL fair, any expert VF player will know that Lau, Kage or Akira is tons more powerful than any other character in VF2.

First of all, you don't speak for all the expert players out there. This is your opinion. If Lau, Kage, and Akira are 'tons' more powerful in VF2, that means that certain matchups against these characters are impossible, and that some characters don't stand a chance. Correct? So who doesn't stand a chance?
Dragon Jiji is known for his 100+ win streaks with Shun Di. You -know- he faced some great Akira and Lau and Kage players at some point over the course of 100 games in one of Japan's most popular arcade. Knowing that he could do this with shun di, would you be comfortable betting 5000 dollars that Kyasao would beat him in a three round match? I'll make the question easier for you. Would you bet on Kyasao or Akira Kid vs. ... say, Shinjuku Jacky? Or BunBun Maru? After all, in your version of VF2, neither of those characters holds a candle to Kage or Akira. So this should be a bet you'd be willing to make.

Here's what I think expert players really know. They know that past a certain skill level, ANYONE is a threat. Certainly Jacky with his PPEK and low backfist and and uncounterable elbow is. And there's no arguing about a character like Jeffry or Wolf who can do low punch MC, throw for over 100 points of damage. And don't get me started on Sarah. Even Pai and Shun and Lion can knock off half your lifebar from one uncounterable attack like the sidekick or OMP.
So while I might be helping your argument that VF2 is loaded with cheap crap, I don't think you can win an argument that it's unbalanced. EVERYONE can KILL YOU with just TWO OR THREE correct guesses. There is nobody in the game who is hopeless or underpowered. As Pai, a ST, [pp]PK will do just as much as damage as an akira player who can SPoD all day. My sidekick will lead to more damage on an interrupt than his dashing elbow. My P and d+P are just as good.
With these four moves and maybe the occasional option select f,d+P, any pai can own any Akira with sufficient skill. VF2 was like that, and it's one of the reasons it's fun - you have an incentive to try any character, and few moves were completely useless (the way they are in VF3).

As for the popularity of VF2 vs. VF3... it's valid to argue that since I didn't get any figures straight from Japan, I can't say for sure which did better. But remember - the guys Rich and I got this information from were Japanese. They have more authority to say this than a magazine you buy in an import shop. If you don't buy my argument about VF2 being popular in Japan long after 3 came out, then I cannot agree with you until you produce those old Gamest and Famicoms.

Finally, here was my point about Lau's f,d+K.
You said "I hate cheesy moves like Lau's sweep"
I'm saying this: Lau's sweep was NEVER cheesy in ANY version of VF. You cannot say this and have skillful players believe you are a VF expert.
The closest it ever came to being cheap was in VF3 OB, and that's why it was fixed.
In OB the execution of the move was 20 frames, nothing to cry over. The move was only low throw counterable, but then again it only did 30 points of damage.. you'd need six or seven of them to kill someone. So this is a slow, low risk move that has little reward. If you had said something about Akira's OB shoulder ram (midlevel, uncounterable, guaranteed 50% damage combo followup), or Jacky's low kick (17 frames, second low kick is always guaranteed, free throw on interrupt...) then you would have been making a better point. But by making that comment on Lau's jisoutai, you betray your inexperience. It sounds like a street fighter player saying "throws are cheap!".

Just so you know, there are only two things I really disagree with you on.
1. That VF2 isn't as fun as VF3. It's just not true for a LOT of players, most of the ones on this board at least. VF2 is fun precisely BECAUSE it's so cheap, and because every character has powerful moves that make them worth using, even vs. Kage/Lau/Akira. Just because there were parts of the game YOU hated, that doesn't mean you can claim it was unfair for everyone or less popular than it really is. You can say "well killer instinct has 50% combos for everyone too" .. but the difference in VF is DEPTH. It's FUN to low punch MC someone else's low punch attempt and then dash forward while they're stunned and low throw. It's FUN to play the surprise exchange guessing game. It's also fun to struggle out of an elbow stagger and reverse your opponent's punch when he makes a failed throw attempt. There's endless variety in the mini-mindgames that come up in VF2.

2. I disagree that VF2 wasn't as popular in Japan as VF3, but I guess we'll have to call this part of the argument a draw since neither of us can come up with hard proof.




/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>~~~ Don't make me rape you with a sharp stick ~~~/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>

 

I'm going to violate your posting how-to guide and say a me-too, and give a thank you for putting my raging bile into coherent words.

--
"I know I say the word 'fuck' a lot, and I'd apologize, but; I don't give a shit." - Lewis Black

 

I'm not saying that the rest of the characters in VF2 are useless, they are just less "lethal". Good Characters have moves that are both "usable" and lethal, lethal meaning they RO you or do more than 75% damage. "usable" is the key here, moves that does a ton of damage but is too slow or too easily punishable are "useless". For example, Lau's Upknife in VF2 is hardly punishable, is fast, has good hit-judgement, threatens to RO you, and its very LETHAL. Sarah doesn't have such a move, mind you. Anyway, I never said that those characters are invincible, but the expert Sarah player will lose like 5-1(thats bad enough for me) if his opponent is an expert Kage or something(in VF2 of course).
And I think Dragonjiji and Akira Kid only got their 100+ winning streaks in VF3, not VF2, but I'm not entirely sure, can anybody verify these wins?
VF3tb is definitely more balanced than VF2, but there are still some characters thats slightly stronger than others, but its balanced enough for me.

Quoting you:
Finally, here was my point about Lau's f,d+K.
You said "I hate cheesy moves like Lau's sweep"
I'm saying this: Lau's sweep was NEVER cheesy in ANY version of VF. You cannot say this and have skillful players believe you are a VF expert.
The closest it ever came to being cheap was in VF3 OB, and that's why it was fixed.
In OB the execution of the move was 20 frames, nothing to cry over. The move was only low throw counterable, but then again it only did 30 points of damage.. you'd need six or seven of them to kill someone. So this is a slow, low risk move that has little reward. If you had said something about Akira's OB shoulder ram (midlevel, uncounterable, guaranteed 50% damage combo followup), or Jacky's low kick (17 frames, second low kick is always guaranteed, free throw on interrupt...) then you would have been making a better point. But by making that comment on Lau's jisoutai, you betray your inexperience. It sounds like a street fighter player saying "throws are cheap!".

Lau's f,dk isn't just "uncounterable" in VF3OB, its also got high priority VS mid-level attacks like elbows/sidekicks, and it does a lot of damage on MC, and don't forget that a pounce is guaranteed after the sweep. If such a move isn't strong, I don't know what is. Your point about Jacky's dk,k isn't entirely correct, it only became a true combo in Ver.3.1(later tweaked again in tb), and a throw IS NOT guaranteed on MC, only sometimes.

Finally, I didn't and will not say that VF2 is not fun, heck there are many people who enjoy games like CapVSwhatever and Mortal Kombat. My point is that its not a fair game because there are too many cheap moves and stuff. For example, the hit-counter-select is simple absurd, a move that serves 2 purpose is dumb and unfair, not to mention the ridiculous senbon punch, and Kage and Akira can senbon punch. Still think that your Sarah or Pai is as powerful as them? Heh...

 

Were you dropped repeatedly as a child?

That you can read my note about VF2 being played long into VF3tb's life and somehow turn it around to mean this - "the idea that VF2 is a more fun game because more japanese people play it, therefor it cant be wrong" - is just madness. Total fucking insanity.
It was something that was meant to be taken for what it's worth. Don't you fucking tell me what I was ultimately saying; the way YOU took it shows how much you jizz your pants over the Japanese: "it can't be wrong", "there's no doubting it".

You FUCKING imbecile.

Nice one, Andy, hijacking Adam's username. Will you please fucking answer the question many have asked and the one you've totally ignored, and try to give a coherent answer for why you haven't registered?

--
"I know I say the word 'fuck' a lot, and I'd apologize, but; I don't give a shit." - Lewis Black

 

you're allowed violations. For me, reading Mr. Bungle in the evening is like other people having coffee in the morning. Or something.


/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>~~~ Don't make me rape you with a sharp stick ~~~/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>

 

We're close enough to agreeing at this point. Given equal player skill I would porbably guess that Kage beats sarah 3-1. Remember that whether you get 50% damage per combo or 75%, you still need two combos to kill. The difference is that Sarah needs two major counters while Kage needs two throws. Kage however also has PK-slide while sarah has horrible throw. Even so, an intelligent sarah with good reflexes should not lose 5-1 to an equally skilled expert player, I think VF is closer than that.

Also, Lau's sweep, even if it beats some midlevels because of its priority, still takes 20 frames to execute.. I know players who can block that on reflex. I can't. I could do it in VF2 but now the animation is more subtle. I'm not as scared of jisoutai as I am the upknife, but I don't consider either cheap. Especially since it's important to think in terms of VF3 TB. That was the fix, it's biggest in japan, and it's the one on the dreamcast. I think of the old jisoutai as a bug.

And yes, option select is unfair. I don't mind reversal option select so much, but I hate eating lau's b,f+P throw and eating an elbow if I ducked it.


/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>~~~ Don't make me rape you with a sharp stick ~~~/versus/images/icons/mad.gif<font color=red>

 

In OB, Lau's jisoutai is in of itself a great move. But put together with his elbow palm, punching, dash and throw game the jisoutai is an incredibly useful/abusable move. It's only real weakness is that you can dodge it...but only to one side.

 

yah..I like how he prepares my daily cup of coffee every morning~

very satisfying

Oh did I just violate the code? /versus/images/icons/laugh.gif

Last time~

<font color=red>~~~ ' wah~ so rude!mad]~~~'

 

You don't know fuckall about VF, but you pretend to.

Lau's f,d K was counterable if blocked with low throws and Akira's DE/SDE, as well as Kage's uf K. Lau could only pounce if he nailed a big MC; otherwise, a df K ground kick was all he got. 20 frames is slow; a f,d K is going to get MC'ed by any almost any moderately fast mid move after any of Lau's flowchart starters. And in VF3, MC damage is dependant on what move it MC's. That's not to say it's a bad move, but to suggest it's what made Lau so badass and what typified the cheese in VF3ob is just absurd.

And...wtf. There's no such thing as VF3.1. There were four revisions of VF3 before TB. Rev D came out a ways down the line, and only until then were Jacky's low kicks "fixed". Rev C, the most popular and numerous version outside of Japan, had low the low kick cheese, and for most non-Japanese players it was all we knew.

And jesus dude, if someone had the dexterity to do Senbon Nokku to KO, they fucking DESERVED to win. If they were good at in combos, well good for them; more reward for their dexterity.

Stop whining, freak.

--
"I know I say the word 'fuck' a lot, and I'd apologize, but; I don't give a shit." - Lewis Black

 

I did mention that Lau's f,dk is counterable with low throws, go read my earlier postings before you start your mindless rants again. I also did not say that this move alone made Lau formidable, but its a powerful move nonetheless; yes its slow on paper(20f) but its got a high priority against mid-levels and its difficult to punish. If you want to insist that its really nothing much, then I'm afraid you haven't fought REAL Laus.

I can frankly tell you that we had only 2 versions of VF3ob here, most of the players here just name Ver.C 3.1 for convenience(perhaps ignorance if you like) sake. So there is a Ver.D? Hmm...

I don't agree at all that the player with the greater dexterity should win. In fact, one of the many reasons why I think VF3tb is a much fairer game than VF2 is because you don't need exceptional motor skills or lightning reflexes to thrash your opponents. A better strategy and an ability to read my opponents moves has more than made up for dexterity and reflexes, the lack of it that is.
I think VF2 is closer to KOF in the sense that a difficult combo will usually win you the match. Overall, I think nobody can dispute the fact that VF3 has got more depth than VF2; to me, a deeper game is more fun because its no longer just combos and guessing games anymore, I think VF3(tb especially) is closer to chess.

Finally, I'm not interested in convincing anybody here that I'm an expert, if you think I'm just some newbie posing as an expert, I'm ok with that. Results speak louder than words anyway...




<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by alucard on 10/23/01 09:56 AM (server time).</FONT></P>

 

"the way YOU took it shows how much you jizz your pants over the Japanese"

No The way I took it shows how ONLY you can take someone's words interpret it and pass judgement on someones opinions.

I never agreed with your statement. Maybe now you know how it feels look how pissed you are getting just cause I passed judgement on an opinion you made about the japanese and the fun factor of the game....after all 29083732987498326493264 japanese cant be wrong can they?

CrewNYC

 

Will you please fucking answer the question many have asked and the one you've totally ignored, and try to give a coherent answer for why you haven't registered?

If this is all you have left for me in your ammo supply rich, its a sad sad day for you....

I mean c'mon the more people like you keep telling me to register the less likely I will...

CrewNYC

 

I thought my thread was on okizemi.... duh....

 

**yes its slow on paper(20f) but its got a high priority against mid-levels and its difficult to punish. **

Well, apparently this is visible to only to those who have sperm in their eyes.

**I don't agree at all that the player with the greater dexterity should win**

I said no such thing; I said if someone had the dexterity to do Senbon Nokku to KO they deserved to win - because it's so goddamn hard. And, why do you bitch and moan about potential bullshit, anyway? I'll bet you've never seen anyone even come close to doing it.

**Overall, I think nobody can dispute the fact that VF3 has got more depth than VF2**

Some might argue the other way around. Almost everything in VF3tb is counterable; you cannot move as well as you can in VF2 (spare me the rant on KS'ing, it's nearly worthless). And at the end of VF3 in some places it was just machi [fuzzy block] -> counter. That's not deep, that's degradation of the game into utter boring worthlessness.

--
"I know I say the word 'fuck' a lot, and I'd apologize, but; I don't give a shit." - Lewis Black

 

> I mean c'mon the more people like you keep telling me to register the less likely I will...

Just answer the fucking question, you retarded cretin. There are other people that are not "like me" who would like to know. Why won't you answer? Are you admitting that you're so childish, so stupid that you are incapable of registering? WHY?

You fucking imbecile.

--
"I know I say the word 'fuck' a lot, and I'd apologize, but; I don't give a shit." - Lewis Black

 

idiot if you can read that was the answer. The more people LIKE YOU tell me to register the more I wont. simple.

CrewNYC

 

**No The way I took it shows how ONLY you can take someone's words interpret it and pass judgement on someones opinions.**

If/when I do, I don't twist and distort and re-define what the other was saying, you miserable fucking parasite. Fuck off.

--
"I know I say the word 'fuck' a lot, and I'd apologize, but; I don't give a shit." - Lewis Black