NYC GTN Movie

You guys are all idiots, my experience you need to play VF blind folded that's how you will reach a level beyond the JP players. Frames don't mean jack=who's me by the way /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif. Oh Raider you tell'em Finlandboy.

 

yeah, i'd have to agree with maddy's post entirely.... you CANNOT.... learn vf by looking at the positive experiences of how a player has "fallen" for your random choice.. (lol)

these are player issues or situation issues and cant help you, and you cannot base your game around your opponent's mistakes or you will find that really a person who knows much better than you would eat you alive because they have a consitantly structured game which is trained not to deal with specific moves, but the general base of attack, the general base of defense, the general base of their own recovery and their own openings and they will already have a strong fuzzy guard or a guarenteed standing palm combo waiting for you at the end (or beginning) or your choice...

on a general basis, learning to improve withought knowlege holds no ground, you will be wondering why you lost, rather than understanding why you lost. there is a difference here, because one of them provokes you discovering ways how to solidify the area, where as improving without understanding provokes you to "keep playing until you are more confident"..

one of the things i DID learn when i was in japan is that players hold the defense to eat up anything and you pulling out a "random OMG nobody EVAH uses this move" still has an attack class, high, mid, low, special classes. and before you can say "frames lose!" they have already earnt themselves a setup of their own choice. because determined by the situation, they are able to adjust an attack scheme into the most logical choice..

BUT...

players who dont deal with frames think that frames is the only way to determine correct data, .... it's "wrong" some moves have specific proporties you didnt know about before, or instance, wolf's short shoulder is 20 frames which is huge.. but it has evasive proporties to suppass high, and mids depending on it's timing, this means i am able to use it on rising to beat out most oki choices and earn me a high damage combo. it can also use it as a choice in RN, and it's vital that i knew that. it puts a whole new prespective into my attacking game and had solidifyed an offense even in a point of defense.


i will make this clear..

frames DO NOT LIMIT YOU, they only broaden your choices in any siuation, and anybody who feels that knowing frames and VF logic will limit you is completely wrong COMPLETELY WRONG

it is one thing (and this is a repeat) to slot in frames like a jig-saw puzzle, and it is another thing to be aware of your situation and pull out the *best* logical choice acording to your player with an *understanding* of you and your opponent's status wholey.

experienced base VF can teach you things visually, but dont forget that these things you learn and watch came from a knowlegeable source first. learning the game will help you to make up your OWN techniques specifically to YOU, and that's what konjou's vid is about in the first place.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Myke said:
So, here's the movie:

joyofgtnwmv.wmv 99.2 MB


[/ QUOTE ]
I cant open/download it,"The connection was refused when attempting to contact media.vf.com"
Any advice??
EDIT:
Now I saw it is old, my mistake, the link from homepage took me to the first page, i didn't noticed

 

I guess you didn't read my entire post.... cause if you did, I talked about all these subtleties, and I DIDN'T propose that you can learn to time to beat a back dash evade. I clearly showed you the different scenarios and stated that since a back dash is variable, that's why it's NOT possible to time an attack that will beat both ETEG and BDETEG...... please read it more carefully...

That's why I clearly stated that using a TIMED delay attack is not very useful, because of the reasons you stated, that a back dash IS VARIABLE. That's why I showed the different cases, and you don't have to delay attack with big launchers, you can delay attack with jab or lp if you want.
The point IS, you CAN delay attack to beat a back dash evade. Especially if they are doing TE's. This is why I'm advocating delay attacking by reaction, because then you are throwing out all this frames and timing out of the window, and you can hit it EVERYTIME, as long as you have the necessary reaction.

Go ahead and test it in training myke, have cpu do elbow, then ETEG, or back dash ETEG, even do a few different ones with varied up lengths of back dash. As long as they are doing TE's, you have a huge window to react. You can jab, you can do 13 frame launchers, etc.

My previous post was just showing you that it IS Possible under certain cases to even time to beat a back dash evade TE. BUT, as we both showed, that a back dash IS variable so you CAN'T rely on it. This is why I said do this by REACTION. So you are not relying on timing which can be defeated by varying up the back dash.

This is why I said back dash evade CD cancel is the most effective strategy, because you are minimizing the window of opening.

Myke, you basically proved again what I said, and repeated my logic, except with a bit of bias. My conclusion since the very first post was that whenever you are doing TE's, you make yourself vastly vulnerable. I said specifically that only when a TEG is entered, both ETEG and BDETEG are not effective against someone who punishes on reaction, BUT, if you do CD cancel instead, back dash evade IS effective, since the window is minimized.

I don't understand what the problem is, just go into training and test this out. I would be shocked if none of you guys can learn to do this by reaction.....

 

but then of course you watch for an evade which never comes and throw away your advantage.

you just have to guess. will he evade here you think? to which side maybe? i got a throw he won't be out of?

the thing that gets me is...konjou gave us a very specific application of BDETEG (vs lau's 66p+k ) which works for a reset against most of the followups and suddenly we're in a discussion about it's usefulness after blocked elbow.

a more reasonable training exercise might be...have the cpu go 1)elbow, elbow 2)elbow, ETEG 3)elbow, BDTEG 4)elbow, BD 5)elbow, throw ...and then see how good you react...how often that delayed attack works.

 

First thing first, my point was to say that frames are important in VF. The reason why I wanted to say that is what Rodney said in his response. Rodney, I understand what you meant by that. You know me, and I know you so I am sure you are not getting me wrong. I made my point because I thought that Rodney's statement could be misleading.


[ QUOTE ]
Konjou_Akira said:

According to the United States Of America VF Text Book your best option in that situation is to Low Punch or ETEG... ppffffttt! After I got back from Japan I made sure I threw that numbers game bullshit right in the thrash and the United States Of America VF Text Book.

Just play the game!

[/ QUOTE ]


My definition of frames in VF involves not only the adv/dis adv involved in certain moves but also weird properties they'd have. Studying the usefulness of those moves can help improve your game a lot. You can either learn it from watching clips, reading bookss, articles on VFDC or testing it out in the training mode yourself. What I prefer is watching clips of other players to see how they use it and practice and do more testing in the training mode to make it my own.


How Raider learn things from testing out in the training mode is not different from how I do it. I might sound like a guy who studys VF through number and nothing else, but instead I learn from experience both by traveling around and watching others play and solidify the learning by analyzing with frame knowledge and training mode replays.


In this case, frames are there to help you understand why something happens in VF. Say, you don't know what Kage's 9K+G leaves him on block. You could go in the training mode and do certain things to eventually find out it's even on block, or you could play against a Kage player number of times and find out about the fact by trail and error. What I prefer doing is make use of the source of there and take a short cut. (looking it up)


I am not here to say which way is better, but learning through experience definately needs a decnet competition around you. Say you don't have a Leifei player around you or in your entire country. What would you do to practice and get prepared for that certain character? Learning through exp is a nice way of learning VF, but it has its own requirements and it certainly takes trial and errors. If the requirements are met and you are willing to go through the trial and errors, I have no doubt in my mind that this method would work, and yes, Raider would be one of the examples.


P.S. Raider, I am also looking forward to playing you in the future. Keep up the good work until then.

 

[ QUOTE ]
maddy said:

First thing first, my point was to say that frames are important in VF. The reason why I wanted to say that is what Rodney said in his response. Rodney, I understand what you meant by that. You know me, and I know you so I am sure you are not getting me wrong. I made my point because I thought that Rodney's statement could be misleading.


[ QUOTE ]
Konjou_Akira said:

According to the United States Of America VF Text Book your best option in that situation is to Low Punch or ETEG... ppffffttt! After I got back from Japan I made sure I threw that numbers game bullshit right in the thrash and the United States Of America VF Text Book.

Just play the game!

[/ QUOTE ]


My definition of frames in VF involves not only the adv/dis adv involved in certain moves but also weird properties they'd have. Studying the usefulness of those moves can help improve your game a lot. You can either learn it from watching clips, reading bookss, articles on VFDC or testing it out in the training mode yourself. What I prefer is watching clips of other players to see how they use it and practice and do more testing in the training mode to make it my own.


How Raider learn things from testing out in the training mode is not different from how I do it. I might sound like a guy who studys VF through number and nothing else, but instead I learn from experience both by traveling around and watching others play and solidify the learning by analyzing with frame knowledge and training mode replays.


In this case, frames are there to help you understand why something happens in VF. Say, you don't know what Kage's 9K+G leaves him on block. You could go in the training mode and do certain things to eventually find out it's even on block, or you could play against a Kage player number of times and find out about the fact by trail and error. What I prefer doing is make use of the source of there and take a short cut. (looking it up)


I am not here to say which way is better, but learning through experience definately needs a decnet competition around you. Say you don't have a Leifei player around you or in your entire country. What would you do to practice and get prepared for that certain character? Learning through exp is a nice way of learning VF, but it has its own requirements and it certainly takes trial and errors. If the requirements are met and you are willing to go through the trial and errors, I have no doubt in my mind that this method would work, and yes, Raider would be one of the examples.


P.S. Raider, I am also looking forward to playing you in the future. Keep up the good work until then.

[/ QUOTE ]

maddy you are free to give your honest opion on this matter. I actually appreciate it. It will never change the way I feel about you or anyone in this VF community. I am not that shallow of a person nor can I ever be such a person. It's just not within my heart. As for the whole United States Of American VF Text Book thing. I was just simply being a smart ass and not deliberately trying to attack anyone or make sense. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif I guess I didn't think it through how people would interpret that before I typed it. No love loss dawg! I am still your numero uno negrito! /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[ QUOTE ]
Myke said:
blah blah blah


[/ QUOTE ]

no point in reposting all that crap, because I aggree with everything Myke has said since he begain replying a few pages back.. I just have to say thanks Myke for being the only person that seems to be making some sense since I posted that vid.

 

omg, Myke's on fire!!!!!!!!!

 

Myke, first of all thank you for reading all of my post. Now, you have said yourself that we have to consider a real life game situation. The frames you posted are the break down of the situation that I posted, but you yourself forget to apply it to a real game situation.

In an actual situation where defensive techs like ETEG or BDETEG will be employed, it would most likely be those times where you are at a disadvantage. The point of doing an advance tech like BDETEG is to avoid the potential counterattack, and throw escape. Now, depending on the situation, you can be anywhere from a mid to large disadvantage. This means that you are already a few frames behind, in other words, a buffered attack from the opponent at this point would in effect execute those same number of frames faster.

The charts you posted, assumes that the situation is neutral. If you are let say -6, this means that a 13 frame attack if buffered, would connect in 7 frames. So this means that you only have less than those number of frames for your back dashing to end, otherwise you would have cancelled your backdash too late, and you would have been hit before a back dash even occurred. If the opponent were to do a jab, it would connect even faster depending on the character. So in those charts you posted, depending on the amount of disadvantage, the window of overlap is actually bigger, because the BDETEG frames would slide to the left due to the amount of frames lost. The case that you are presenting, is if you are doing a BDETEG strictly to beat the timing of a delayed attack timed to beat an ETEG. This would mean that the case you presented, is essentially a defensive tech that can't beat a buffered attack, because the evade is executed so late as to delay through the timed delayed attack. If people are really doing a FULL back dash whenever they are doing this technique, then they will be hit by a buffered attack.

Essentially, In cases 2, there is a 12 frame opening for the other player to attack, and in a mid to large disadvantaged situation, you are giving up 16 to 19 frames of opening in your back dash.

In case 3, you are giving up 20+ frames of opening. So what is the point of doing any throw escaping??? If you do a BDETEG hoping to beat a buffered attack or a throw, AND a TIMED delay attack..... it's just stupid according to the cases you presented.

This means that with the way you think people are inputting, a player is giving up the defense for a buffered attack to deal with a delayed attack. Well, if one is so sure that someone is going to delay this much, he or she might as well throw or attack. Is that what people are doing? It sounds like a really stupid thing to do for a defensive tech that is supposed to be the closest thing to an all around defense. Are people not doing BDETEG to defend against throw/buffered attack/delayed attack? Most people buffer the back dash during the recovery, this means that the actual time when a full back dash is over is much shorter than that, and if that is what people are doing, then the overlap window is much greater than you suggested. The only way for the cases you presented to work is if people actually waited until their moves finish recovering, and then input the back dash, which both of us know this is not true.

Why is everyone refusing to understand the point of this, that ETEG and BDETEG are not effective defenses against delayed attack, because of the TEG part!! Because anyone with a good reaction can see the failed evade and lose to a delayed attack. I keep on stressing the fact that yes if your opponent is not a reaction player, then by all means, just BDE all you want. My findings are for those who have gone a step above that, those players who have learned to beat a BDE by executing their attacks on reaction. This brings the next logical step in questioning as what Sanjuro have asked.

What if they use this against you by attacking twice, or back dashing and attack? Well, if you learn to delay and attack on seeing the failed evade, if they do something like attack twice, you'll still be blocking and still be able to see what they are doing. The only problem comes when they exploit the fact that you are blocking high and follow with a low kick, or throw in a disadvantaged situation. Like what Maddy says, Segaru PGS after a low kick. Since he knows the opponent is going to wait for his ETEG, whether with a back dash or not, he exploited that strategy by throwing him in disadvantage.

Please please, get a buddy and give it a try. Do a BDETEG in a disadvantaged situation and have your buddy try to hit it with some sort of fast attack, and learn to punish it on reaction, then mix it up with ETEG and see if it makes any difference. So Myke, redo your charts according to a real life situation, and see if the window is like what you proposed.

 

[ QUOTE ]
you'll still be blocking and still be able to see what they are doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

and you've thrown away your advantage by waiting for the big move. I'm reminded of some advice Summah gave the us players traveling to Japan last year (I'm paraphrasing now) "forget about your EDTEG...sometimes you have to have the stones to just stand there and block"...at the time I understood this to mean "you're gonna get yoho'd if you evade" but over the last year it's become clear that simply is a reasonable defensive choice (adam YUKI, for example, guards like a freakin' virtuoso)...VF dude...every defense can be punished & every attack can be defended or dealt with...vs seasoned players you have to make your choice, hope it's the right one, and be prepared for the consequences if it is or isn't. Blocking elbows all day & eating throws waiting for my chance to gloriously punish a defensive technique my opponent is loath to employ just ain't vf to me.

I know I'm kinda picking on a little bit of the post and setting up a pretty flimsy strawman, but my point is yomi wins.

 

First of all, to Sanjuro:

Thankfully, you have taken the next step in thinking. This is the logical conclusion to the thought process, that in the end, simply becomes a highly effective defense when both players are trying to outsmart the other. I totally agree with you, that yomi is the highest of them all.


Now onto Myke's post.

[ QUOTE ]
The disadvantage here does not matter because of two reasons: (1) no attack is guaranteed, and (2) we're considering that the attacker has already chosen to give up the advantage by not attacking right away. If they did attack right away, then the evade in both situations (early/delayed) would be successful since that attack wasn't guaranteed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point one, that's a given. Point two is the focus of my last post. We can NOT assume the attacker has already chosen to delay his attack. By claiming point two, already you can see why BDETEG is not an all around defensive tech, because to minimize the overlapping window, you need to delay long enough to beat the TIMED response. The chart you posted would only be valid if he gives up the defense for a potential buffered attack.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345
(i) ++++
(j) @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
(k) ---------8-5@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
(l) *************
</pre><hr />

Which is clear I think to you as well people don't do backdash ETEG to give this kind of opening. This is only -4, imagine higher disadvantages. If you watch Konjou's clip, he does akira's , which on guard, is -3. With the case you presented, there was no possible way that Konjou could have evaded Jeffry's

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre> 123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345
(i) +++
(j) @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
(k) ---------8-5@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
(l) ************** </pre><hr />

So his input must have been at the very best something like this....

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre> 123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345
(i) +++
(j) @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
(k) 4 4------8-5@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
(l) **************
(m) P*************@@ </pre><hr />

Which, as you can see, this is modeled with (m) a well timed 14 frames attack, and the overlapping window is actually larger than what you proposed, and with a 13 frame attack, it's actually an even bigger window. This clearly shows that it's more possible to do this than what you thought. This example shows the very very best of what could have happened, meaning Konjou inputed the evade at the very last possible second. Chances are, people are not perfect like that, so they probably evade faster, giving an ever bigger overlap.

It's funny that you now say that we have to consider the attack has given up the advantage of attack, because in your previous post, you said yourself that
[ QUOTE ]
Why? Well, try answering this question: when should Lau enter his attack input? Any time so long as the hit phase falls in that 13 frame window? Wrong. The correct answer would be exactly on the 12th frame. The reason for this is because if the attack starts to execute on any frame before the 13th, that failed evade shown in (d) that we're relying on suddenly becomes a successful evade and our attack misses.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why I said that you forgot to apply this to a real game situation. When the disadvantage gets bigger, say -6, the window gets even bigger!

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre> 123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345
(i) ++++++
(j) @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
(k) 4 4------8-5@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
(l) **************
(m) P*************@@@@@ </pre><hr />

So clearly, the opponent would have an easier time using any attack faster than 14 frames as the disadvantage gets bigger. Imagine a throw!! Otherwise, you are commiting to using a defensive tech to cater to the timing of the timed delay attack. But if that is what you are doing, if you already know that the opponent was going to delay to that degree, then you wouldn't be doing BDETEG would you?

This is just showing the point that in a real game situation, when you take into account BDETEG being applied, you have to adjust the numbers. But of course, if you change the aim of the defensive tech to purely beating delayed attacks, then there are much better options than doing BDETEG....

Also, by the way, the last section of my last post wasn't directed at the BDETEG issue, it was directed at Sanjuro's post. I wasn't trying to cloud the issue by giving what if's, but rather provide a starting point at the next logical step as a result of this issue.

 

I don't know what you just said, little kid. But it touched me!

GE

 

Rodney: /versus/images/graemlins/cool.gif



As far as the discussion goes, it all comes down to the fact that in order to beat an Evade(or ETEG), you have to anticipate it and delay your move without a help of your reaction.

BEATING A FAILED EVADE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH REACTION. IT'S ALL ABOUT ANTICIPATION.

If you can delay your attack to beat ETEG out of reaction, nobody would of gotten hit by nasty opposite nitaku attacks in trying to land a delayed attack. You would be able to wait to make sure if they don't attack then do your delayed attack, if you could do it out of reaction. Since you can't do it in VF4, by delaying your attack in anticipation of your opponent's delay attack, you are taking a risk of eating your opponent's opposite nitaku.


Then again, like Srider said, a delayed attack targetting BDE is executed out of reaction.

In short, they are compeletly different situations.

Let's move on now.



P.S. Holding G is just as good as ECDG and BDE as only way to beat just guarding is to throw. If you can outguess your opponent, you can forget about all the fancy defensive tech and just rely on either guarding or attacking in a less than -8 situation. I wish I could play like that. /versus/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

[ QUOTE ]
There is no ALL AROUND DEFENSIVE technique, but BACK DASH DOUBLE / TRIPLE THROW ESCAPE GUARD is pretty damn close.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many frames does it take to execute BDETEG? For perfect hands, it'll take 4-5 frames, meaning that realistically, BDETEG will escape immediate throw attempts only at small disadvantage situations. I'm sure some people can make it work at medium to large disadvantage situations, but I find it highly unreliable. That's why many players just BDECD or BD attack when at large disadvantage situations, because the throw escape portion won't account for much. And at small disadvantage, what would you rather do...BDETEG or ARE? There are definitely trade-offs involved.

No question BDETEG is a great defensive technique...but it's hardly all powerful.

 

[ QUOTE ]
ice-9 said:

[ QUOTE ]
There is no ALL AROUND DEFENSIVE technique, but BACK DASH DOUBLE / TRIPLE THROW ESCAPE GUARD is pretty damn close.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many frames does it take to execute BDETEG? For perfect hands, it'll take 4-5 frames, meaning that realistically, BDETEG will escape immediate throw attempts only at small disadvantage situations. I'm sure some people can make it work at medium to large disadvantage situations, but I find it highly unreliable. That's why many players just BDECD or BD attack when at large disadvantage situations, because the throw escape portion won't account for much. And at small disadvantage, what would you rather do...BDETEG or ARE? There are definitely trade-offs involved.

No question BDETEG is a great defensive technique...but it's hardly all powerful.

[/ QUOTE ]

yea I am fully aware of how inferior this technique is depending on the situation. Your are right ARE would probably be my best choice at a small disadvantage. But, everyone is forgetting that I only use this technique here in NYC. When I was in Japan I never used it, NOT ONCE! The way they play there is no use for it. Here in the good ole US of A. I find it to be some what useful. Just depends on your opponent that's all.