North America VF4 Evo Clips

Ive played and beaten Shota, I still suck.
And im pretty sure the majority of people you mentioned will still be playing in coming years, at least until the sequel is up.

 

Bryan, in this subject (RE: comparing U.S. to Japan), there are two categories: those that have been to Japan/Korea and played intensely, and those who have not. Guess how views on this subject diverge. /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Sure, NAVF players can reach the elite...it's certainly possible. Likely? No. I'd bet money against it.

(And why NAVF? Right now the only player within shooting distance to that tier isn't even from the U.S. but from the U.K....and hmm, that guy speaks and reads Japanese, plays in Japan a lot, and is buddies with top players there. Coincidence? Good as Ryan is, however, he's still a long way away from even being able to qualify for a major tournament in Japan).

Ultimately, what it comes down to is this: play to improve yourself at your own pace and don't constantly compare and bicker with that other tennis player at the YMCA. It's rather unbecoming, not to mention naive.

 

Well Goldens lemme tell you it's not the first time....There were this guy Emil from Canada that used to travel down all the time to play in NYC and all over the place. He too discovered VFDC and he too stopped playing about 3 years into the game. Liking the game and looking for comp 3/4 years from now is a different story. Emil was a very close bud to NYC VF'ers.

 

Hi Andy. I think you have to remember that people move on. As much as someone loves playing, other parts of their lives might be kicking into gear. Whether It'd be children, girlfriend, boyfriend, work, marriage, whatever...

The point is that life goes on man, we have to retire sometime /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

Not to mention the fact that most everyone will get tired of playing against the CPU sooner or later... when he/she don't have regular competition.....

I'll continue to play evo as long as others are still going at it. Maybe by the time the next VF is out, I'll be living in japan and join those of the elites . /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Alas.. KOF2002 will be out soon.... It'll help me discover the FOB in me. /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

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In General...

Most of you have not been around long enough to know what is and what isn't achievable by japanese vf standards.

This includes the sumeragi's, the creeds, peter, the shangs, the hyuns, the llan's, the Emils etc. etc. Most of you quit after the 3-4th year.

Anyone who played NYC players at the end of VF3tb's life span knows how competative we were up until a month before vf4's release.

It took us 5 Years but by the end we were competative by Japanese Standards, NOT NAVF standards, we were far above NAVF standards.


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Andy... i don't really think a person's vf3 lvl would be that different from his vf4 lvl; Yomi doesn't get worse with practice right? Thus i am assuming your vf4 lvl is still your best level yet... did i do so badly during the last meeting that you had to say, in public, that i know nothing about japanese lvl?

well as you said i quit for quite awhile, but man, can you imagining never having anyone around that can play competitively with. Yes that is 'NEVER': shou and other friends of mine were babies back then, it is after i left STL they started to develop an interest for the game. For years i didn't even touch vf, cuz all friends around me don't play fighting games at all.

If you are in my situation, will you be still be thinking of strats/ways to improve yourselve if your only training partner is the CPU dummy?

Well i guess you wouldn't even care, since you are so blessed to have 4-5 ppl around that can play competitively, why care about other's excuses?

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I cared about beating Shota and Hiro and Ice-9, people who would have been considered avg to above avg by japanese standards.


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For some reason this wouldn't hurt my fragile ego as much if it was spoken by the above 3 person /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

LOL so if hiro, shota or ice-9 made those comments it would be any truer? heh

Really though you made my point quite clear. You have a lack of competition so you naturally stopped playing the game as many of the people here will as well. You could have still come to NYC in the 4th year and the 5th year as Ice-9 did.

VF3tb was a different beast than 4. Believe me on that one. VF3tb had many many more absolutes than 4. If you block one thing, this is always guanteed type situations. In VF3tb by the 5th year I was able to beat Shota and I felt I could do it consistently, our last match up had me with a 6 or 7 win streak. Is this something you think I could have done year 3? No way. 4 has much more 50/50 situations and variety so no the Yomi is much different. Also VF4 EVO hasn't been out long enough, 3 years from now we will have to see what happened, but in VF4 EVO so far my pai only had 30 something % wins against you and Shou beat adam somewhere between 60-70% and at somepoint shou had close to 50% or 50/50 with me. So it definately says VF3 Yomi and VF4 Yomi are quite different.

So Mike if you quit because of a lack of competition 3 years from now of course I will feel bad, because you are a good player but I will also understand that is because the people around you eventually either gave up or felt it wasn't worth it. Thats certinaly not a negative point to you, just that you will never know how far or how good you could have become unless you play till the very very end, a thing few people are willing to do.

If the same trend continues in vf4 as it did in vf3, you will have less people to play with which is very unfortunate.

 

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<font color="orange">VF3tb was a different beast than 4. Believe me on that one. VF3tb had many many more absolutes than 4. If you block one thing, this is always guanteed type situations. In VF3tb by the 5th year I was able to beat Shota and I felt I could do it consistently, our last match up had me with a 6 or 7 win streak. Is this something you think I could have done year 3? No way. 4 has much more 50/50 situations and variety so no the Yomi is much different. Also VF4 EVO hasn't been out long enough, 3 years from now we will have to see what happened, but in VF4 EVO so far my pai only had 30 something % wins against you and Shou beat adam somewhere between 60-70% and at somepoint shou had close to 50% or 50/50 with me. So it definately says VF3 Yomi and VF4 Yomi are quite different. </font>

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I can understand what you're trying to say - the further dedication of the NYC VF3tb players led to their ability to get even better. This much is obvious - training - continuous training - can be applied to anything as a prerequisite to developing higher skill.

However, Andy you've got to be careful here, I think. When you compare your wins against, say Shota or whoever, have they been playing with the same intensity for that duration? I'm assuming here, but I'd say that Shota was more or less a casual player in the latter years of VF3tb DC.

See, I bet that if I played Evo like crazy for the next 4 years and some high/strong japanese players casually touched the game and I beat them 60%, I don't think I can exclusively say that my abilities to win at this point are exclusively due to my training. Did I get better over that time? Absolutely. No doubt there. But my ability to win against these players is also a factor of their lack of playing.

Do you see what I mean? I just think that you need to preface that ahead of what your point is. It doesn't knock the NYC skill at VF3tb, but it does put it into a bit of a better perspective, that's all.

***
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<font color="orange">Sure, NAVF players can reach the elite...it's certainly possible. Likely? No. I'd bet money against it. </font>

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I think i'd agree with you, Jeff, if those NA players were to try and achieve that level of play while remaining in NA. I think that there's quite a few people in NA who have the talent to become a great player should they have that consistent japanese competition. I don't think i'd write everyone off in NA as not having that potential - there are some for sure. But they'd have to be in Japan all the time, and commit the required time and dedication that the elite japanese players invest in.

I think that if Ryan was a permanent Japanese resident, he'd perform even better. Would he make Nationals? Who knows - maybe, maybe not. I'd bet he say that he would make it a goal to be the best though...

 

There are few ppl that play in NA period. And there are even fewer that could play with most asians from Korea/Japan and make them go "wow this guy's pretty good." Everyone in Asia is soooo good and so tough due to the amount of competition over there. It's kinda like new cop and veteran cop. The vet cop has no problem and is completely comfortable shooting someone, and the new cop can't even pull the trigger. We're the new cop on soo many levels here in the US. The view the asians take towards the US VF scene is that most think it is awesome that we even have a scene and that there are ppl willing to play in such adverse conditions(without competition) and the backing of SEGA. After going to asia, I stopped wishing that I could play with them and started working on appreciating everyone that even picks up the game in NA. We're the large average white guy on the court in the NBA. We're competitive, but most of all just glad to be out there. You guys that have any sort of chip on your shoulder need to get over it and smell the roses =). later. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

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LOL so if hiro, shota or ice-9 made those comments it would be any truer? heh

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just because hiro still trashes me to obvilion last time we played. And i am *assuming* jeff be real good now (from the way he talked recently hahah /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif ). As for shota, well, from my view of his online posts (near 0 now /versus/images/graemlins/crazy.gif ), he just won't say it unless he feel absolutely necessary. I don't think i've done much to piss him off, same here with you andy (thaz why i am kinda surprised you brought my name up).

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Really though you made my point quite clear.

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Yes /versus/images/graemlins/smirk.gif But been called "Far below the NY lvl" still rattles my stupid ego enough to response heheh. Even scrub like me don't like to be labeled scrub in public /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

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You could have still come to NYC in the 4th year and the 5th year as Ice-9 did.

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Jeff was probably still trying during that period (shrug, i heard he was visiting you guys on and off often back then), but man seriously it is hard to keep interest level up with 0 ppl to play with. I do respect his ability to stay on track during those years heheh, i think he was at a vf desert zone just like me.

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just that you will never know how far or how good you could have become unless you play till the very very end, a thing few people are willing to do.

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That opportunity, Andy, is something you should treasure for. But understand that an overwhelming number of NA scenes does not have ppl like Katsu and Hiro to teach, nor nice sparring partners like Adam, Nelson, Rodney to practice new strat with. If i have a vf crowd like that i will probably still be playing dedicately now. <font color="yellow"> play till the very very end </font> is just impossible, unless you have a good group to hang around with.
So if i misunderstood, i apologize, but it almost feel as if you think ppl are inferior for not be able to keep up. /versus/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

"from the way he talked recently hahah"

Whaaat? Heh heh, I'm not that great. Improving a lot, but still just alright.

"Quitting" or "retiring" from VF isn't really a concept that I thought about much. For me it was....no VF for 340 days a year, and 25 days of intense VFing every time I go to NYC or LA. It's a hobby, not a job; there's no quitting, just periods of inactivity. /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

People are still surprised to hear that I only played 3-4 times per year when I was in the U.S.

 

this is kind of boring and long, so sorry to bog down the thread with it

Andy said:

"Again online I can't tell what you meant by "mad skills" it sounded sarcastic and I figured you a better player than that. A scrub would think to himself, look at him he's using the same move over and over."

You're right, Andy, I was being a smart-ass. But, I think maybe what you're missing is that I was actually just trying to make Rodney laugh, I wasn't trying to insult you somehow. But again, I'm still kind of suprised that you're now taking the opportunity to rate me on some scale here based on the joke I made...

If I said, "you're right, 2K+G 5 times in a row is the SHIT! I was in denial about just how high level your play has gotten, sorry I jested about the mightiness of your skill in public" would you think I was a better player suddenly? Different people enjoy using and watching different styles of play, and since I know Rodney, like from VF2, and we used to talk occasionally about such things, I was just making a crack based on what I knew about his take on the game.

But, it seems like you think that your style, or what you like, is like THE way; and since you think I don't understand the depth of your gameplay, you've decided to call me a "scrub", or "thought I was better" or that I "fashion myself as a good player". I don't really care what other people think about how strong/weak I am, I just think it's kind of odd that you're willing to go out on this limb socially, seemingly to just to talk about how great you are at playing a video game. I don't really think of comments made between people online and offline as some separate reality, so as a casual friend, I'm just kinda confused as to why you'd act like that? Sorry if my joke offended you so, I thought it was all in good fun.

"A good player would know its conditioning and be surprised at the risk/ratio the move hit.
Had that been a japanese lau player playing another good japanese player with 5x d+k+g...or akira hitting somsone with 5x yoho....and 6th time a grab the comments would really have WOW did you see how he guessed correctly?"

regardless of who was doing it, I'd think the same thing. There are plenty of Japanese players I don't find interesting, no matter how famous they are or how many wins they get. I don't really care for the play of BaiaguLau, Skelton, Minami Kage, AoiPai, Tokyo Megane etc, but not because they suck or something, just because it's not my style... and I think that's probably where we diverge in this instance, if someone landed a Yoho, or Lau's 3P+K 5 times in a row, I'd be impressed because those moves actually lead to an interesting situation: big air combo that changes the flow of the match substantially. THerefore, after getting hit with those kinds of moves, people are really careful to defend against them next time in a similar situation.

But to me, as an event in itself, landing 2K+G isn't very interesting. It's just a move that buys you a little breathing room, takes a little damage, and knocks the oppt down. I think one of the reasons Rodney was slow to respond to your conditioning in that case was that the 2K+G didn't really make enough of a big impact that he needed to worry about defending against it again... but of course, that's the opinion of a scrub, if I were a better player, maybe I'd get it.

"In General...
Most of you have not been around long enough to know what is and what isn't achievable by japanese vf standards."

I'm pretty sure you aren't reffering to me here, but I'm suprised that you're saying this, because to be honest, in my mind, you're relatively new to the VF scene in NA. While there are a lot of people on VFDC that are here since VF4, If I remember correctly, I played a lot of NYC VF2 and 3 with Adam, Nelson, Rodney, Hiro, Sal and a whole gang of other people you may or may not know before I ever met you. Creed, Sumeragi, Shota, Alan, Mason, Yupa, all people I remember from RGVA, and there was a whole scene before that which I never knew about, since I never played VF1.

Again, I'm just suprised that you're willing to put yourself up on this pedestal and be like "you peons have no idea...". What's the point? I know those aren't your words, but that's the message between the lines here. I mean, have you spent a lot of time in Japan playing and seeing what's attainable? If not, how do you know? because Hiro told you? You saw some videos? From your own words, it seems like the thing you're most interested in attaining is a fat win streak, but in and of itself, does that mean you're a truly great player? Or an interesting player? Or that other people enjoy playing VF with you? For me, that last one is most important.

Look, I'm not mad, I don't think you suck, and I consider us friends. So as a friend, I feel like I have to say that, to me, you're going out of your way, running the risk of looking like a schmuck, and I think that when it comes to the points you're trying to make ("I'm a really good VF player, well above the average in the US"): most of the people reading this just don't care.

Anyway, again, sorry I couldn't come to NYC, hopefully we can catch up another time.

To KungFuSmurf/SuperGolden:

the comments I made about japanese/us players weren't based on some idea that those people have some natual gift that US people will never have, or that they're smarter or whatever. You'll notice I said that their scene makes them stronger, and that's because i think what makes truly great players is fighting with a LOT of different people all the time.

Even in a big setting like TiT, there were only about 30 people, and we only fought each other the smallest bit (I didn't even play with Blonde1 the whole weekend). I think it's hard to realize just how different things are in Japan, especially in Tokyo. I've seen arcades where there are more people playing/waiting to play at a given time than there are hardcore VF fans in the US. That happens on a smaller scale every day, at hundreds of game centers across the country. At any given time between 10am and midnight in a normal town in Japan, there are probalby at least 20 people you could be playing VF with, and most of them about as good as the top players in the US. If you go to a Sega arcade, or a real hot spot like Nishispo, they start to become a LOT better than you, due to sheer lack of practice against hundreds/thousands of people.

Seriously, I think I've played VF4 with about 150 different people here and in Japan, maybe less. But if I lived in Japan, it would probalby be closer to 1000 at least, because I'd be fighting every day for a couple of hours with all different kinds of people. That's when you get strong, and start to rise above the mundane techniques most of us are stuck on over here.

Here in LA, because we play with each other all the time, we're all about even almost all the time, amost EXACTLY 50/50. The only person I'd give some egde to is Joey, and even that isn't so much, maybe about 10% more when he's "on". That's what happens, you can only be as good as your comp is forcing you to be, and here since our scenes are so small, we all end up playing in certain ways against each other. But when you have to compete with 10 different skilled Kages or Jackys ina given week, or day even, it's different.

I know people in the US have the ability to rise to the best levels, it just can't be done here /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif. That's why everyone should make a trip to Japan sometime, just to see it. It's really fucking humbling, and a lot of fun, especially if you get to fight with the truly big guns, who are in a mental universe of their own, where it seemed more to me to be about interesting situations and dialogue, not just wins. I think that's the real reason to try and excell at the game, to get to where I don't need the BS textbook tactics anymore. Doubt I'll ever get there /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Spotlite

 

Woh hey, why the personal attacks dude? Just because I called you a troll and an asshole and say your clips suck, you get all junior high on me /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

"You defend one person, then lay the trash talk on mine. Way to set a good example."

LOL... I must have fucked up... the worst public representative of VF <font color="yellow">on the entire planet</font> just told me I'm setting a bad example. All I said is basically what omaha said. I didn't see you getting your panties in a bunch there. Omaha has a good point:

<font color="white">crewnyc-vf4 - andy wins
NYC_CrewNYC_Lau_vs_AdamYuki_Lion.avi - andy wins
CrewNYC_Lau vs Adam Yuki in nyg3.wmv - andy wins
Pai (is that you?) against Omaha Jeff - andy wins
CrewShun vs Mikenyg3 in nyg3movie.WMV - andy wins
CrewShun vs JediFei in nyg3movie.WMV - andy wins
CrewShun vs Shang in nyg3movie.WMV - andy wins
pai vs adam's goh in pai1.wmv - andy wins
pai vs omaha's akira in pai1.wmv - andy wins
</font>

You never once show yourself losing a game, and only very rarely show yourself losing a round. I'm not the first person to notice, omaha isn't either. Did seeing all those wins listed help you feel secure enough to post an interesting loss?

PS: Stop sucking Crewnyc dick at at least give poor adam the footage he deserves, we all know he owns you for free. I'd love to see some more hot'n'steamy goh action. And congratulations on registering.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Most of you have not been around long enough to know what is and what isn't achievable by japanese vf standards.

This includes the sumeragi's, the creeds, peter, the shangs, the hyuns, the llan's, the Emils etc. etc. Most of you quit after the 3-4th year.


[/ QUOTE ]

I just have to say that the TO crew has been around and playing seriously since the day VF1 hit Funland in '93. Llan has more experience with every version of VF than 99% of the people on this board, and I suspect more experience with VF than you.



kbcat

(check the first VF1 faq you'll see a name from the TO crew in the "thanks" section. Will I see the any member of the NYC crew there?)

 

Oops, I forgot to mention -

You dissed a bunch of random people and three or four of them wrote back with a hurt and confused tone saying "why are you picking on ME?" ...in your words:
<font color="pink">NICE!</font>

Are you getting it yet andy? Or does it need to be spelled out more clearly by, say, 30-50 people?
Spotlite: Andy isn't going out on a social limb. He fell off the social tree a long time ago and hit every branch on the way down. He's not gonna hurt his reputation by disrespecting a few friends on the internet, because being an ass on the internet IS his reputation.

As for "CreeD[etc] hasn't been around long enough to judge and we'll see if he's around in a few years"

1. http://groups.google.com
2. advanced search
3. author is: CreeD
4. group is: rec.games.video.arcade
5. press the button.

Damn nigga! 74 pages of results going back to Jan '96! And yes, they're all by me and all VF-related.

What's sad is you list like 7 players off the top of your head who you consider quitters who haven't stuck around long enough to know what you supposedly do.... and six of them are longtime vets who posted on RGVA and continue to post today. Hyun's been posting since fucking 199-fucking-4.
NURRR.

Bottom line: You're full of shit.

 

You're confusing him nammy... crew likes using a ruler to measure cock size, and you wanna use a cray supercomputer.

You and llanfair should get together and do a just-for-fun VF stats thing.
This is offtopic and distracting from the fun flame thread, but this is the best place to slip it in.

It'd be neat to see you guys come up with a mathematical formula that can give you a cut-and-dried rating on how good an attack is. It'd be based on execution frames, rec frames, damage points, reward (either typical followup damage reward or frame advantage reward), and maybe come up with some math for the intangibles like a mid move is more valuable than a high move, long range attacks are better than short ones, etc.

 

[ QUOTE ]
It'd be neat to see you guys come up with a mathematical formula that can give you a cut-and-dried rating on how good an attack is. It'd be based on execution frames, rec frames, damage points, reward (either typical followup damage reward or frame advantage reward), and maybe come up with some math for the intangibles like a mid move is more valuable than a high move, long range attacks are better than short ones, etc.

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Scoring functions are indeed very difficult to make effective and even the best are highly disputed. That being said, I would love to try and do this and it's something I have considered doing before but never got around to getting it started. Conveniently, I have good experience with scoring functions from a co-op I did last year (I helped develop some scoring functions for some drug design software)...hmm...now that you've got me thinking about it it sounds like it may be really neat...thanks Creedlet! /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

<font color="yellow">.cheers.</font>

 

It's not the math that's tricky, it's the thinking behind weighting what is "good."

 

Creed, Llanfair: Actually I was thinking about how to build a scoring or heuristic function for VF4 ever since I took an AI class. The AI class was full of a ton of great stuff like min-max theory and the like. I think I'm gonna write a new thread in General about VF4 Theory and see what we can come up with...

Spotlite: I knew what you were trying to say about the gaming scenes in Japan and Korea being better than they are here. I also understand what your saying about being exposed to different styles and the like, and that by being in Japan or Korea you will be exposed to more styles and players than in the States.

However, suppose there exists a small group of players (doesn't matter where.) Each player has their own styles. Obviously, the number of styles each player plays is limited by the number of players in the group.

However, when players play eachother, they learn and their styles change. I don't think it would be possible to prove that a group of X many people playing eachother will eventually hit a glass ceiling in their skills and playing styles, whereas a group of some other size greater than x will not. Even if there is a definite bound on the number of play styles, I would be hard pressed to find an upper bound on how good a group of players can get based on their size, or on how much their play styles can evolve.

This is really just to everyone in general, but I don't believe there is any tangable thing that is keeping any player, anywhere in the world, from become as strong as any other player.

It could be a simple self fulfilling prophecy that since we think we won't be as good as the Japanese we never will be.

 

The point is...

Some people are born better at playing VF /versus/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Just like there are some genius go kids that can waste any old respected go player in no time.

now having said that, it doesn't mean NA players are all stupid'er than Japanese players, but the fact is in Japan/Korea they have the environment ready for those players to excel, to blossom without limit perhaps. The key here is the competitions, in US, the "nurturing bed" are extremely hard to find. Even where there is a huge (so far i don't know any place with >10 players, other than in NYC, if you combine the groups /versus/images/graemlins/smirk.gif) competitions, there just may not be any nature talent exists in that pool. Your idea of x ppl playing in group x is right, as long as you remember not everyone can reach the highest level. With the NA scene like it is, it is like a lottery chance to have a right person at the right place. /versus/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Sounds like growing trees /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif but it is exactly how it is, no seed develops the same way, some will become wide and short, some high and thin, and the chance of getting a huge spectacular tree is close to zero at an infertile soil.