New TV: Plasma or LCD?

Hey, UnderaZoR, if you're in or around the Montreal area, you should check out this forum:

http://virtuafighter.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/142879#Post142879

The scene is currently on a temporary hiatus till VF5 Evo is released, but we're a good bunch (or so I like to think >_>).

 

I haven't noticed any problems with my XBR2's (XBR3 is essentially the same) ability to handle fast movement, or any type of blurring issues since I've owned my set. Might be the adjustments (?). Give me an example of what type of movement may cause the TV to falter; so I can check this for myself. I definitely never noticed it while watching football or movies; but of course, that's certainly not to say that it doesn't exist /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif .

 

Throwmasta,i'll give you some examples but the issues i see may come from a bad set. ( my english may seems innacurate ;-) )

Games tried on the tv: CoD3, Halo2, Gears of war, Elder Scroll.

First, i noticed that small dark area ( like clothes) look almost like a uniform patch; crushed black, lack of details. Large shadowed area look unreal like layered cloud somewhat moving and disappearing; look like the tv try to find the background focus.

In Halo, CoD and GoW i 've made my character move in a spin-around camera not too fast and the background seems really not clear in comparison of plasma.

I noticed that the image always look a little bit fuzzy.

The set can really look good at first look but all those things named appears much more when i switch to lcd vs plasma vs lcd and plasma retry.

But the most important thing is to be happy with the set purchased and sometime what's seems good for someone may seems bad for another for whatever reason.

My trying adventure on hdtv isn't ending now but it tend to end on Pioneer or Panasonic plasma... i take my time and like to try set when i can do it, i'll give a chance to the XBR4 set, this panel seems great but i really wanna compare this one with a Pio Kuro.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

Thanks for the input UnderaZor. Weird though, I haven't noticed any such effects with VF5 for PS3, or any of my upscaled PS2 games (PoP: WW and Dark Cloud 2 to name a few). Absolutely no fuzziness or dark areas on any character clothing thus far. In fact the clothing in VF5 looks absolutely stunning on the XBR2; as do the colors and textures. The fuzziness you're witnessing really surprises, because I get a very crisp, pristine picture on my XBR2; and extremely vibrant color. You might have been playing on a bad set, or one that hasn't been adjusted or calibrated properly. I myself only made a few tweaks to my XBR2's settings; as I'm extremely happy with the picture it produces right out of the box.

Maybe I'll have to test more games though. I do own GoW, but don't have much a desire to play it anymore; after going through the game twice.

 

Back to Plasma vs LCD...here's what I understand thus far.

Plasma

Pros:

Great picture and some of the best non-CRT blacks with regards to the flat screen TVs. Handles movement well. Good viewing angles. Permanent burn in seems to be a thing of the past.

Cons:

Temporary burn in is still a problem. Screen tends to be reflective. Not the best picture in non-ideal conditions. Phosphor lag (EWWWW!!!!) as seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVw_VvFcV1U That was on a KURO (one of the best Plasmas) I believe. Nothing under 42".

LCD

Pros:

Great picture...not as great as plasma, but still good and seems to be about on par or better than plasma in non-ideal lighting conditions. Glare less of a problem (unless the screen is glossy, like the Samsung 65 series which uses the glossy screen to improve the colour saturation IIRC). The XBR4 comes damn close to plasma in picture quality. No burn in. Dead pixels only a problem out of the box (defective product). From 5" up to 50+" screen size.

Cons:

Blurring or smearing as seen here: http://www.mediafire.com/?bmj12edxb4y (video was done on the XBR4, but since it only seems to affect games, it's being discussed whether it's a settings issue or a firmware issue on Avsforum). Mura (no idea what this is) and "flashlighting" (apparently normal for the first 40-50 hours of use on the XBR4 but goes away). Price may be an issue (they're about on par with Plasma I think). You can find XBR4's for under $2500 these days.

For me, other than the blurring/smearing, the rest of the LCD problems are hardly noticeable unless you're looking for them. Even the blurring/smearing is relatively minor. Temporary burn-in and phosphor lag are much more annoying to me. XBR4 comes damn close to the best plasmas in picture quality, so unless you're doing a side by side comparison in ideal conditions, you won't notice the difference. If the blurring/smearing of the XBR4 gets solved via a settings issue or firmware update, I'm buying it tomorrow! If you must get a flat screen, XBR4 seems to be the best for LCD. Not sure about Plasma (check Cnet).

Others can feel free to add or correct anything in my post.

 

My response, i'm not an expert in hdtv but just read a lot on avs forum and across the net...

(generally speaking)Burn-in seems not to be a problem but we can talk about image retention that stay there for a short time and to see it we have to look at black/white screen. On IR, pioneer seems to be the king to avoid it. With good set like Pioneer and Panasonic i don't make IR an issue. At what i read it seems that samsung buyers have more quality problems with there panels, but samsung make great viewing panel to.

And from the phosphor lag you talk, i think the lag term isn't a lag in the way we know it.

I quote xrox from avs forum on this:

xrox wrote:

He is referring to the rise and fall time of the phosphor material. Rise time is how long the phosphor takes to reach full luminence when excited and the fall time is how long it takes the phosphor to stop luminescing after excitation ceases (also called decay). The problem with phosphor RGB displays (CRT and Plasma) is that the seperate RGB phosphors have different rise and fall times that make "SOME" people able to see the different decay times during motion (appearing as yellow trails or blue leading edges).

The artifact presents itself as a yellowish trail behind moving edges on the screen. The reason is that the blue phosphor material stops emitting light much faster than the green and red phosphor material that can take several milliseconds to stop emitting light. Here is a chart plotting luminence versus time for all three phosphor materials on a 42" plasma display. You can see the PWM code as well as the trailing green and red luminence (combining to produce yellow trails). Note the quick rise time of the blue phosphor that contributes to blue leading edges.

Due to the time scale this artifact is very hard to detect for most people.

xrox quote end.
----------

At all the plasma display i look and somes try. I never see this.

And the problem seems not to be as bad in person as with a filming camera.

 

Ah, sorry, I thought image retention and temporary burn-in were the same thing (or are they?).

As for phosphor "lag" (maybe "delay" would be better?), he's right (as far as I know) that it depends on the person. Personally, I notice both blurring/smearing and phosphor "delay" ( /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif ), but I feel the former is less of an annoyance to me (I'm a videophile, and both annoy me, the former just less so lol).

WHY CAN'T WE HAVE A PERFECT FLAT SCREEN TV?!?

BTW, phosphor lag, as UnderaZoR said, isn't as bad as that video. Gears is considered the ultimate test for Phosphor lag and the camera sorta of exemplifies the problem. Anywho...

Remember, HDTV is relatively new tech so there's pretty much no HDTVs out there that are perfect. Sucks don't it... =(

Choosing between Plasma and LCD (or any other type of HDTV) comes down to comparing each pros and cons and known problems and to SEE FOR YOURSELF! Some problems you may shrug off as unimportant after hearing about em on the net but can suddenly become your worst enemy in person and vice versa. Bring a copy of your favourite video game or movie to the store and ask them to test it out on the TV (with the best cables they got...HDMI preferably). Why? Because a lot of times, the video source they got running through the TVs is shit...pure shit (not to mention all the ambient lighting throughout the store. >:-(

That's my advice: do research. This is an investment so be sure you're gonna be happy with it!

 

Like you said, no panel is perfect :-( and the final decision is on our own and again like you said it's wise to do some research and bring our 360 to try some panel like i'd do...

I think talking about phosphor delay isn't the good term to use since "reponse time" on plasma is very fast... it's like an inverted delay, a residual lighting... but if i remember, about 10% or less of peoples are sensitive to it.

A good place to start our searching hdtv adventure may be here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/, but also their is so much information and it can confuse sometime.

 

Back to Ztaar's question, if you have a PS3 then you MUST avoid any resolution that is not 1080p. My suggstion would be to buy a Full HD LCD tv and make sure you run the game through HDMI.
Unless the fact that you are playing at a very high resolution will slow down your game, you won't have any rescaling problems as you'll bee feeding your LCD panel with a signal that has the same exact resolution.

 

Ok so I have a DLP.

To me I think a lot has to do with the game system and game itself and not the TV and after extensive testing this is what I found out.

the more direct connections the better. The less upscaling the better.

So my original setup was:
360 Elite Connected via HDMI to the input of my HDMI audio receiver. Then output HDMI from my receiver to the HDMI of my DLP

see the problem.... too many connections. works great with HD DVD movies but not so good for certain games

So then I try... HDMI directly from 360 to DLP and the connection is great on certain games. Music and VF have its problems

So then I try Component from 360 to TV and run it at 720p and bam connection is better. Standard Source with Standard Resolution equals less lag

Bottom line
Get a tv with a great return policy

 

Agreed, if you own a PS3, go with a 1080p set (preferably LCD). PS3+Sony XBR series=perfect match. I've had absolutely no problems with lag for VF5, and the picture (for PS3/PS2 games, blu-ray movies, and HD cable) is amazing.