My thoughts on the current state of fighting games

I don't want fireballs in VF and I don't want VF to play like SF. I do want 3D fighters in general to have something more to offer at mid-range than "do your good moves" and something more at fullscreen than whiff punishing or dashing around until someone takes initiative.

Give everyone a few distinct ranges at which they can control space and dictate control of the match instead of one range where you can dominate the other guy. That's all I'm asking for.

 

The issue is that Namco's ranged games suck, and I explained why in the article.

Seth liking SF doesn't discredit what he has to say on the subject, just as me liking GG and AH doesn't discredit what I have to say on it.

 

Perhaps the ONLY thing i agree with was the "Give people something to do at range other than whiff punish"

Yet when i think about it, this is one defining feature of a good VFer, a good Vfer knows how to "bring you back" into their game, tho it can still be a bit of whiff punish, a player can "stair step" or ECD their way toward the distant opponent while actively evading and guarding most attempts and now they are back in range, otherwise opponent throws early attack, and whiff punished.

p.s. Back in the day, a VF scrubs entire game was range... <------ this guy's

 

Right, and that's kind of the issue. Your only real answer to being at that unfortunate range where none of your buttons are effective is to dance around your opponent so he can barely hit you.

Why not be able to predict it and punish him on the spot? Granted, there are some ways you can do this now (inashi/sabaki, low/high crush, etc.), but they're just hard counters that don't require much forethought besides "he's gonna do this". There should be a richer guessing game here, there can be a richer guessing game here, but so far no 3D fighter has had the balls to try it.

 

Before we get to the very long distance, we must first be at a shorter distance, this is when one CAN use the guessing game to punish them for predictability. From the first two "levels" of distance a simple side kick will blow up a back dash, and a decently fast half circ or full circ will blow up stair step/ecd. My point being, that to get to that distance you must "win" some level of guessing game, now your distance is your payoff.

And youre not dancing "around" opponent , youre dancing "toward" them.

In general the range game is the technique of the lesser skilled in VF (imo) and I almost never see a skilled player lose to someone trying to range game them, often they use range as a crutch because they dont know whats going on up close, I have yet to see this become a problem, because the one that knows the system and practices it almost always comes out on top versus these range game tactics.

 

Yes and all fighters have this issue. 2D are not good at this from my perspective either.

I would argue that what you describe is the same issue present in 2D fighters. I just heard you describe in this post what people call Footsies, play that is associated with the highest level of play.

I'm pretty sure you are not trolling (that article would be too much effort to troll) but I'm struck by how the conversation isn't really going anywhere. People here have basically been saying to you that there is a basic assumption that's inherent in your argument that is flawed. Rather than discredit what a collective of independent people are noticing, it would be more productive and lead to deeper discussion if you responded to the assumption in your argument. Make it a hypothetical response if that's easier.

My point isn't to shut down discussion. I honestly want to engage with your idea, but it's impossible to really move forward. People are clearly noticing something in your statements that might be outside your own awareness. I actually read your whole post and see some good points in there mixed in with some points that may be based in false argument points. If you explain those points away by saying what you meant to convey, then it might be more clear to us what you want to see in the 3D genre that you think the 2D genre is doing well.


aside: I don't see MKX's 2d game-play with 3D frames as a solution or even desirable. It's a good game that feels kind of strange because of the strange jumps.

 

The younger crowd may not be able to grasp this but apparently there seems to be some confusion to why 3d fighters were created in the first place. In the 90's there was a demand to make things closer to reality and less like a video game. Virtua fighter was that answer. In real life, you can't attack at all ranges, the human anatomy disallows that. There's no such thing as a Dhalsim or fireballs in real life so it was never implemented in Virtua fighter. To suddenly demand for a change in the game's original concept just because more players prefer a less realistic take would be called being too picky.

 

There was a time in which we all played Street Fighter once in our life time, and we have played Tekken once in our lifetime. We play fighting games for the competitive nature behind them. What is being played in japan has little to what the world's reason for popping that quarter or booting up the system. There's a scene for everything.2D isn't dead, neither 3D. You mention a esthetic makes me wonder that vf probably lacks that lure of a game like, gg, or tekken has. Doesn't stop people from playing. VF implemented a sideturn game. Goes to show that 3D hasn't yet reached limitations. Tekken always added some weird stuff, I admit, that most of these things come from 2d fighters like rage arts or supers. however it just shows you they go hand in hand

 

No, you want VF to play like Guilty Gear and the anime fighters that spawned from it, apparently. Look, variety is the spice of life. As much as I love Guilty Gear myself, why would I want to homogenize fighting games to the point where they all are basically the same thing? That's boring. Seems to me the issue with your blog post is that you're claiming there are issues in the basic game design of these games when there honestly aren't any. 3D fighters being predominantly close ranged fighters is NOT an issue because it's by design. It's not some design oversight. If you honestly think it is an issue, what that means is these games are not for you, so just stick to 2D. Most of the other things you try to pin as "issues in 3D fighting games" are found in all fighting games because the concepts you're claiming are "issues" are so bare bones and basic. So I literally don't understand where you're trying to go with this.

PS: Quit ignoring Soul Calibur's existence just for the sake of trying to push your argument. I understand Namco treats it like the red headed step child in favor of Tekken (which pisses me off), but even with that, the games were STILL serviceable, fun to play and conceptually remedies all the "issues" you claim to have with 3D fighters. Not to mention SCV actually implemented meter in a semi-competent way. But just because Soul Calibur did that doesn't mean EVERY 3D fighter needs to follow in it's footsteps.

 

He understands how the games work conceptually and had the perspective back in 2002 or whenever to see the writing on the wall. Case in point: there are two currently active 3D fighters, and a ton of active 2D fighters.

You keep saying this, but you have yet to really say why.

Let's pretend I didn't quote Seth at all and just said everything he said myself. Would you go out of your way to discredit me as a VF player? Claim that I have a "bias" (as if all opinions are not biased lol)? I think you're getting way too hung up on the fact that I'm picking up where Seth left off, and if you actually read the article in its entirety you would know that I would love nothing more than a new type of 3D fighter that could blow our minds. In order for that to happen though, something big has to change in the genre. Tweaking frames and hitboxes is only going to go so far in keeping people's interest.

 

You know what would make me happy. If players would stop bitching and learn to play the game they have right now before they start talking about changes. They are only a few players on VFDC that I would even listen to when it comes to changes to the game and they already addressed the issues with FS. Either play and learn the game you have now or just don't play it.

Also quit saying VF doesn't have footies. Just cause most players on VFDC doesn't use them doesn't mean it doesn't have them.

 

Old man denkai enters the fray ! @_Denkai_

 

Where did I say that? All I said is that 3D fighters don't have a fleshed out neutral game compared to their 2D counterparts and that something has to be done to address that. Everything I said about Guilty Gear was explaining how the best aspects of 3D fighters are no longer exclusive to them.

You and the other guy are trying to say that 2D games have the issues that 3D games do, but they really, truly don't. Running away to the other side of the screen in 2D is tangibly worse than it is in 3D because you don't have nearly as many ways to defend yourself. You can't position yourself to keep running away, either, because you don't have anywhere near the same amount of space to work with. Compare the amount of usable space onscreen in 2D fighters (the entire X axis and however high you can jump) to the amount of usable space onscreen in 3D fighters (the entire stage) and it should become obvious why it's easier and less risky to run away in 3D.

I didn't ignore Soul Calibur at all. It is a step in the right direction conceptually, but as you said, Namco will never give it the chance to be the game it should be, so it's not worth hoping that we will one day get a good Soul Calibur game. It is more realistic to expect that someone will one day make a new kind of 3D fighter that will revolutionize the genre the same way VF3 did.

 

Times like this is where it pays to be good in all fighters. Because that way you can see where this article trying to.


Under Night... Best 2d game I seen and played in Months at NL. Decently balanced an fun..

 

As soon as I got rid of that post cause I felt it was too dickridery you had to repost it. ROFL